ThomasDurbin

I advocate for dropping "Magma" and leaving the old CRL with the title and name Lumiya's Royal Guard Stormtrooper for our original Red armor that was based on the canon comic with Lumiya. The various versions of Red armor do differ noticeably just as versions of White armor vary noticeably and have many distinct CRLs and names. For the new versions of Red armor, whichever name is associated with each canon reference for each new edition of armor should be used when possible. Crimson is probably the right choice for most of the newer sets I've seen if they are to be lumped together. Be well. Happy Holidays. #LiveSmart #BeTheChange #Peace

I finally wrote a CRL that describes Lumiya's Royal Guard Troopers. I know it only applies to about a dozen sets of armor from a long time ago, but they are approved and will be around, hopefully, for a long time. I recognize them as distinct and I like the term Concept Costume that was mentioned a time or two. It's a great item for the SW and Legion and Costuming history archives, too. Accept the LRGT CRL as a novelty and for what it's worth to you. Share it, ignore it, add it to the Legion CRLs in the TX section, or forward it to the Crayon section as a Concept Costume of the Royal Guard. No worries. I know it's only meaningful to a few people. I'm not advocating anything at this point. I mostly wrote this for my own peace of mind and due to my own interest in the subject. That, and I like to get things as close to accurate as possible. Always striving to improve the old and ensure the new is as good as it can be. Dang, got this far and the attachment system won't let me attach either the PDF version or the Word version. If anyone wants a copy of it, send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the PDF version. Happy Trooping and I hope we have a great Spec Ops showing at Celebration IX Chicago!

Thank you and good luck! Send me a private message if you want reference material or have questions that I may be able to answer. Cheers! TD PS GO SPEC OPS! Still the coolest SW costumes!

My last offering. I believe I must step out of CRL discussions now (for real). I hope to see many of you out there trooping. I'll be in the original red armor rocking it as long as possible! I know that we missed some things when creating the existing CRL and got distracted by trying to stretch it to help include armor of newer/different origin. Therefore, when a new discussion about CRLs began, I realized it was time to try to get it redone more correctly as best can be done and probably 2 CRLs are needed. I agree that a new CRL is needed. The original red armor CRL meant to be based on the Lumiya story art is something we can put in the archives for those that need it since it only applies to a dozen or so approved costumes and is part of our history as well as our present as long as a few of us are still rocking the original red costumes. I'd like to see it edited and archived, but no worries either way. The group should make a new CRL to cover more recent/new red armor based on any more recent canon references to be found and if necessary use the action figure toys/statue that are essentially red TKs with maybe a few variances. The point I think that was being missed is that there is not a set of good references. Toys and costumes are normally products based on canon characters. In this case, they are being treated as the canon items and it has become a circular reference. That's not normal, but red is really cool and it's here to stay! Of course, I agree that no one should lose Legion status and never meant to be interpreted as implying that any costume that's "in" should be disqualified. Several times, I was made to feel that someone wants to eject the original red armor and that specific person even stated that I should have to "upgrade" my helmet. That's not how the Legion does things. Hopefully, that issue is now understood in that person's mind. The Legion doesn't/shouldn't/can't order changes to be made to approved costumes. The case for red armor described in your new CRL should be bolstered by any verbal/written references to red and/or crimson stormtroopers that can be found in SW universe canon. That should help folks understand things. It will be interesting to see what details can be gleaned from the new action figure toys and how close to identical to TKs they are, so the new CRL may be nearly identical to something existing for white armor and relatively easily created. I don't agree with the opinion that the original red armor with big helmets is not close enough to the Lumiya story art. I think some folks are biased against helmets of larger size. I disagree with FISD on some of those issues. That's what makes Spec Ops unique and separate. We must agree to disagree on helmet sizing and move on. Also, use of the term "outdated" caused concern. Things can be old or based on an old reference, but that doesn't make them outdated or inapplicable. I'm not hopeful that will be taken as meant and understood. Let's please leave it at that. Agree to disagree as needed. In closing, I'm simply looking at a minor case in the bigger picture, the original dozen or so suits built based on one specific art reference that accompanied a short story. Along the way, major concerns were raised when approved costumes were being called outdated and comments about forcing a helmet change were made. I don't have time to worry about this stuff. It takes the fun out of something as silly and simple as being plastic-suited space people trying to make people smile. I think we are in a good place now and I believe I understand where others are at on issues. I hope there are no more misinterpretations of my comments. I wish you the best of luck with writing your CRL. I'll look for the old CRL and historical work in appropriate archives and thank all those that contributed to what was a decent effort to create something where nothing existed and had not much more than one item of art and a lot of lore as a basis. We have learned much since then. I do hope the history is enjoyable and enlightening. Please consider the previous post I provided as the first version of the History of Red Armor. Hopefully, there is a proper place for that documentation and others will add to it as the story unfolds. Peace and best wishes, TD

I agree, Steve. There is too much inconsistency now in this thread and I see how confusion has arisen. I hope it can be restarted from a clean slate. No one is preventing a new CRL for newer, different versions deemed appropriate from being written. Agreeing on what versions are needed has become problematic. The existing CRL covers red armor based on one original reference in the SW Expanded Universe and it's not simply a TK painted red/pulled from red ABS. Let's calmly walk through this. I'll share the history of red armor as I recall it. I think we need to answer several questions and push this effort in a positive direction with actionable conclusions/agreements. I'll start over and present what I know of the history of red armor since I am one of very few people with it and was the only one with red armor at some big events for a long time, including Celebrations. It's been nice to see more red armor at the last 2 Celebrations. Thanks for bearing with me on a clean new start here. The original dozen or so sets of red armor are based on a single reference with no back details visible and other parts obscured. Hence the default to mostly look like a TK but some differences exist between TKs and the Lumiya's Royal Guard art reference. I believe minor corrections to the existing CRL we made for that costume are needed. FX was the armor version of that era and it is accepted that only about a dozen red sets were made for some special project about which we don't have any information at this time. I'd love to find the original maker and get the background story. The original red armor outfits belonging to active members are legitimate, legion-approved costumes. Are we in agreement on that point? We do have a problem with justification of some things regarding (newer and original) red armor. The Lumiya's Royal Guard reference art shows large helmets, no sniper plate on left knee, back not visible for verification, details we failed to add to the existing CRL during the last edit. I'd like to make those corrections. Also, adding confusion, somewhere along the way someone "invented" a definition of "Magma Trooper" and put it on wookieepedia and later added a photo of the mostly red Gentle Giant statue/figure. There is no reference in SW universe that I have found that matches the wookieepedia entry and that description is not corroborated by the text of the Lumiya story of reference where they are called "Crimson-clad stormtroopers" and described by this wording "...two squads were selected from the Emperor's Royal Guardsmen, and are distinguished by their red stormtrooper armor". Nothing about magma or lava or flamethrowers as reported in the wookieepedia entry. I'd like to see anything that corroborates this description. Truly, Red armor is mostly clouded in mystery and, as noted, only one piece of SW universe art for reference existed when it was first added to the Legion's list of approved costumes. No CRL existed until we wrote the existing CRL a few years ago. At about that time (5 or 6 years ago?) there was a long-awaited run of red armor, but it was simply a red version of a more recent TK kit and only about 29 sets were made. At some point before we wrote the CRL and the newer 29 sets of red armor were made came the Gentle Giant statue/figure. It may have been approved by Lucasfilm, but... Is it something on which a costume and/or a CRL can be based? It's only a toy, really, and not a reference of the normally required type from a comic, novel, movie, show, or any part of the SW Expanded Universe. Is it a legitimate basis for a 501st-approved costume? I think that's a tough one to sell, but if you have Legion precedent that legitimizes it that would be good. It's been a stretch connecting the Gentle Giant statue to the Lumiya's Royal Guard reference and associated original approved red armor costumes. They differ significantly. Unfortunately, that was glossed over and basic FISD TK standards have been used for Spec Ops red armor as a default. We did not adequately cover this issue during the creation of the existing CRL, but that effort was needed to cover what we had. The sad fact is that references for red armor are few, with possibly only one legitimate one by early Legion standards, in the SW Expanded Universe. But, now we have a new red trooper action figure being called crimson trooper and I have read reviews of it that refer to Galaxy Magazine #3 which includes the Lumiya story and only art reference we have as previously described. The new figure differs noticeably from the Lumiya story (Galaxy Magazing #3) art reference. Has anyone got reference material from the new SW universe on these new Crimson troopers? Is it also only a toy or is it mentioned in any SW literature (verbal or art reference) or in any of the new games? We seem to truly need hard references. Otherwise, red armor is caught in a trap where it appears that the newer costumes are based on white armor runs and toys and not on true SW Universe references normally required. The original stuff got approved because it was really cool (and still is if I do say so myself LOL) and there was one somewhat obscure art reference in the SW Expanded Universe of the time. Lastly, can we agree to do our best to work together to complete this history of red troopers in the SW universe starting with the original big bubble-helmeted version shown as Lumiya's Royal Guard in Galaxy Magazine #3 and moving forward? Please provide info that supplements what I have compiled during about the past 9 years since I first got one of the original red armor kits. Are there red troopers in any of the SW Games that we need to review? Is the Crimson trooper only in the new set of action figures? Are they mentioned in any new books or comics or anywhere notable? If the Spec Ops command staff wants to evaluate whether or not each reference meets Legion requirements to be the basis for an approved costume, that would be appreciated. This is much longer than intended. I hope folks find it to be a useful history of red armor in the Legion and otherwise in the SW universe. I tried to slide out of this before and I'd like to leave the task of writing a new CRL for any newer approved variations (ala FISD example for permutations of white armor) to folks wearing the newer armor. There are only a few sets like mine in existence and they were approved long ago and remain in use. I was happy to write the existing CRL before all these new issues arose for folks wanting to make red armor but with no good set of SW references. I would like to make amendments to the existing CRL to clarify some points based on a more detailed analysis of the Lumiya's Royal Guard reference as previously noted. I don't have any preference regarding later versions, but a new CRL based on the newer, non-Lumiya versions that are applicable will surely be of great benefit. I wish everyone well. TD

Exactly this! "Are we talking the one from the magazine, the gentle giant statue, and the new black series ones which are called crimson stormtroopers? If this is what we are talking about then ok..." YES! Based on Legion CRL precedent, we need CRLs for the 3 distinct versions covering each of the distinct references noted, Original Comic cover art from 1995, Gentle Giant figure era, and the new action figures/crimson stormtroopers. When you look closely at them, especially the original cover art with red-armored troopers, there are notable differences and attention to detail is a hallmark of Legion costume building and the impetus for creating CRLs and the quest for accuracy for each version of every character/costume. Note that CRLs for costumes stay valid indefinitely and costumes remain approved once and for all time. The Legion, to my knowledge, doesn't and hasn't deleted costumes or members from the roster because newer versions that may or may not be more accurate exist nor does it require alterations or "upgrades" to approved costumes when different versions become available. I don't see anyone blocking any efforts and that is not and has never been my intention. You are free to write new CRLs for both new versions of red armor and post them. I have offered to help if I can and will if I can. But, there is an evident need to defend the validity and continued existence of the original CRL for the original dozen or so red armor kits that are basically based on the Lumiya's Royal Guard cover art (the only reference that existed at the time). I hope the issue is now better understood by all. So, yes, please, form new CRL teams for each of the two newer versions of red armor (gentle giant figure/statue version era and newer era crimson version) and have them reviewed and added to the database along with the original red armor CRL. It will be nice to see all versions covered in the database and due recognition given to all. TD

I believe we all need to step back and take a fresh look at red armor and, for those set on following perceived or real "Legion" precedent, do a new evaluation of the variations of red armor and redo CRLs and issue CRLs for each version of Red Armor based on the significantly varied references for the different versions of Red Armor in existence. I suggest it will be easier to make a new CRL for the new armor and post it as the Red Armor CRL for kits based on action figures, which are notably different from the original art depicting red troopers. I may edit the existing CRL to be sure it focuses on only the actual art reference from 1995 on which it should be based and eliminate the term Magma Trooper because it should only be called Lumiya's Royal Guard trooper. The new CRL for red armor based on later action figures can be the new Magma Trooper CRL and the primary reference for both noobs and veteran costumers for the newer action-figure based kits. As noted, for Legion and FISD purposes different references typically mean the costume is unique and gets a separate CRL (based on FISD example with 14 different TK CRLs). Two Red Armor CRLs is the right thing to do. Do we need to do a poll and get consensus on that point?

Creating a new CRL is a group effort. We put a lot of time into creating the existing red armor CRL. Folks are free to make a new one based on whatever reference they choose. I simply don't have the time or energy to duplicate the effort and respectfully withdraw from debate about red armor CRLs. I don't believe I have (or any one person has) the authority to simply insert new photos to supplement or replace an existing CRL. I think CRL changes have to go through chain-of-command approval after peer review. Folks are free to start a new CRL team and start that process and present their work for approval. The original Red Armor was reportedly a run of only about a dozen kits. Some of those are still around and are the outfits described in the existing CRL. The more recent run(s) of red armor are not exactly the same and it gets difficult to say what should be done. FISD has 14 different versions of stormtrooper armor with a CRL for each. I believe the old and new red armor are not based on the same reference, so it's worth considering having separate CRLs for "classic" red and "newer" reds because they probably correspond to different things (comic art versus later action figures). Unfortunately, there are no red armor references in the canon movies or tv shows and legitimacy with original EU being erased is difficult to defend. If the various versions of red armor are simply considered to be white armor turned red, then it's arguably better to simply reference a FISD CRL and say paint the plastic a certain shade of red and buy red boots to be a Magma trooper. A CRL for Lumiya's Royal Guard Stormtroopers from original EU cover art should be based on the comic cover art that is thought to be the reference for the dozen original sets of red armor. Action figures came later, one from Gentle Giant at one point, and now something different from Disney. These references do vary and, following Legion-FISD example, could spawn several accepted versions of red armor just as several versions of white armor are accepted. I'm sure noobs get quite confused about choosing the right version of white armor. We probably need a general paragraph added to the existing CRL to explain that there are different runs of red armor out there now and provide reference to the matching white armor CRL since apparently color of plastic and shoes are the only notable differences between new red and white armor. I don't believe the original red outfits should be phased out. I do agree that a CRL covering newer versions of red armor should be available. Creating a new CRL is a group effort. We put a lot of time into creating the existing red armor CRL. Folks are free to make a new one based on whatever reference they choose. I simply don't have the time or energy to duplicate the effort and respectfully withdraw from debate about red armor CRLs. I don't believe I have the authority to simply take new photos to supplement or replace any existing CRL. I think that has to go through chain-of-command approval after peer review. Folks are free to start a new CRL team and start that process and present their work for approval. I'd rather just Troop with all you Spec Ops brothers and sisters and have a good time without worrying about these details. I hope to see and troop with a great Spec Ops group in Orlando 2017! Good luck and LLAP.

In the original and only art reference, I noticed that there is no knee plate on the top of the left shin armor. So, I believe that should be optional. Also, it looks like the shins are either not closed in the front or have a black stripe, but I'm not sure. It could be the artist's way of showing some shadow or depth. The helmets look big and more like a bubble than other buckets, hence greater accuracy with bigger buckets.

References, that's the major problem with defining "Magma Trooper" and writing the CRL. I think it is not accurate to be using TK standards directly, including the type of bucket, for anything but White Armor. The red buckets, both old and new (large and small), should still be approvable. In fact, look at the only reference for Red armor and you'll see that the bucket is large and shaped differently than any TK bucket. Based on our only EU reference, one piece of art work from 1995, a big bucket is "best" for red armor. At the end of the discussion, I think the CRL we have for red armor is fine, and it's not because I co-wrote it and did the original photos, but because it's good enough and general enough to get people headed in the right direction. The revision to include new red armor is necessary so that we have photos of both Original Red armor and New Red armor. Now, back to Trooping. I was fortunate to represent Spec Ops in the Tucks Parade at Mardi Gras in NOLA last Saturday, FEB 06, with Bast Alpha Garrison. And, I'm only 2 Troops away from the 75 mark in Red armor! Go Spec Ops! TD

We can have that added to the items under consideration. I've been away from the forums for a while and need to see what everyone thinks in regard to the update. We were working on it last year.

That copy and paste is a mess, but the link works (click "View it in your browser" above or try this: http://us2.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d364b6e2ca1099fb0335fbecd&id=2ed2c1e2cb&e=af6baf308a

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For reference: I posted my old and new Red helmet photos in this thread a while ago: http://forum.specops501st.com/index.php?/topic/3204-new-helmet/