Updated MagmaTrooper CRL Work

[Lightbeard]

Yeah, I think we should clarify the name of the kit to either Lumiya Royal Guard or perhaps Crimson Stormtrooper based off the Black Series 6" figure.

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

It will remain magmatrooper. Reason being is because we dont know if Disney has any plans for crimson stormtrooper being a part of the SW universe other than a toy made and even to that its still dependent on other things as well but for now it will remain magmatrooper as it always has been. There really is no need for clarification at this point.

Yeah, I think we should clarify the name of the kit to either Lumiya Royal Guard or perhaps Crimson Stormtrooper based off the Black Series 6" figure.

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

Just wondering the status of updates for the CRL in the 501st databank?

[Krazytrooper[501st]]

I have all the pics taken of my armor. We just need someone to photoshop it and post the updated pics.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lightbeard]

I have all the pics taken of my armor. We just need someone to photoshop it and post the updated pics.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

If you need help with photoshopping the images, I can lend a hand.

[ThomasDurbin[TX]]

Exactly this! "Are we talking the one from the magazine, the gentle giant statue, and the new black series ones which are called crimson stormtroopers?

If this is what we are talking about then ok..." YES!

Based on Legion CRL precedent, we need CRLs for the 3 distinct versions covering each of the distinct references noted, Original Comic cover art from 1995, Gentle Giant figure era, and the new action figures/crimson stormtroopers.

When you look closely at them, especially the original cover art with red-armored troopers, there are notable differences and attention to detail is a hallmark of Legion costume building and the impetus for creating CRLs and the quest for accuracy for each version of every character/costume. Note that CRLs for costumes stay valid indefinitely and costumes remain approved once and for all time. The Legion, to my knowledge, doesn't and hasn't deleted costumes or members from the roster because newer versions that may or may not be more accurate exist nor does it require alterations or "upgrades" to approved costumes when different versions become available.

I don't see anyone blocking any efforts and that is not and has never been my intention. You are free to write new CRLs for both new versions of red armor and post them. I have offered to help if I can and will if I can. But, there is an evident need to defend the validity and continued existence of the original CRL for the original dozen or so red armor kits that are basically based on the Lumiya's Royal Guard cover art (the only reference that existed at the time). I hope the issue is now better understood by all.

 

So, yes, please, form new CRL teams for each of the two newer versions of red armor (gentle giant figure/statue version era and newer era crimson version) and have them reviewed and added to the database along with the original red armor CRL. It will be nice to see all versions covered in the database and due recognition given to all.

 

TD

 

Ok so I skimmed through some of this and still see this whole having 2 crls thing.

I get that FISD has 3 for the same storm trooper armor since it was different in ANH, ESB, and ROT, which were movies that had good visual references and legit changes but for us exactly what variants are we talking about here?

Are we talking the one from the magazine, the gentle giant statue, and the new black series ones which are called crimson stormtroopers?

If this is what we are talking about then ok but if we are talking about having different CRLs because we have FX(which is not approvable and completely outdatted), ATA, and WTF kits then that doesnt make the least bit of sense.

We should at this point have one CRL with the updated kit and updated information which has been provided over and over again which keeps getting derailed for well "reasons" that continue to be illogical.

This hasnt gone anywhere and keeps getting no progress and blocked and its now 2017.

Can we please just get individual pics taken and a full kit suit up pic taken so we can get this rolling again?

We already have a volunteer Rocky who is willing to take the time to take the pics.

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

No we don't and I am really getting tired of this same conversation with you about this. We don't need three different CRLs for three different toys. In fact they just came out with the new pop funko red stormtrooper so should we make a CRL for that too? do you see how out of hand and silly that will get. If that was the case you do realize that the majority of the costumes in the 501st legion would have multiple CRL's. The reason they narrow it down to mainly 1 is to avoid confusion. You on the other hand keep deliberatly negating logic and keep trying to add more confusion why? I really don't see the purpose.

As far as the crimson storm trooper I think that should be a discussion that command staff possibly can have and take a poll. I am unsure what direction they are trying to go but they have also put out a new pop red storm trooper so seems they have plans for the red but unsure what the end game is until then i think jumping the gun is pretty foolish.

 

Again you are under the impression that people will lose membership blah blah if we update the CRL. The purpose of updating the CRL is simple to keep it up to date. The old CRL has the FX bucket (which is not approvable)and old/outdated information on it

So no we are not having 3 CRL's for one costume. All that needs to happen is to update the CRL and if the variation for the crimson stormtrooper ends up being a canon legit thing then add 1 or just add more information to the one CRL.

so for example

Abdomen Armor

For 501st approval:

• The ab armor has a button area with 9 gloss buttons of approximately 7/16" in diameter.
  
• The buttons can be one of the following color schemes:
  
• 
  
  • The buttons are all black
    
  • Six of the buttons are black and the other three are grey,
    

That is simple easy and to the point without creating unnecessary CRL's.

So above in the example it represents both the original variant and the new black series crimsom stormtrooper

Which I will have to look at my black series and see what other little goodies they have.

I notice they are rocking a new pew pew so again these things can be added to an updated 1 encompassing CRL.

 

Which i will work on a bit later this week and post and see if everyone can finally chill with this and be on the same page. I like to keep things simple for members and aspiring builders over complicating things is pointless, ends terribly and just adds more confusion

 

Exactly this! "Are we talking the one from the magazine, the gentle giant statue, and the new black series ones which are called crimson stormtroopers?

If this is what we are talking about then ok..." YES!

Based on Legion CRL precedent, we need CRLs for the 3 distinct versions covering each of the distinct references noted, Original Comic cover art from 1995, Gentle Giant figure era, and the new action figures/crimson stormtroopers.

When you look closely at them, especially the original cover art with red-armored troopers, there are notable differences and attention to detail is a hallmark of Legion costume building and the impetus for creating CRLs and the quest for accuracy for each version of every character/costume. Note that CRLs for costumes stay valid indefinitely and costumes remain approved once and for all time. The Legion, to my knowledge, doesn't and hasn't deleted costumes or members from the roster because newer versions that may or may not be more accurate exist nor does it require alterations or "upgrades" to approved costumes when different versions become available.

I don't see anyone blocking any efforts and that is not and has never been my intention. You are free to write new CRLs for both new versions of red armor and post them. I have offered to help if I can and will if I can. But, there is an evident need to defend the validity and continued existence of the original CRL for the original dozen or so red armor kits that are basically based on the Lumiya's Royal Guard cover art (the only reference that existed at the time). I hope the issue is now better understood by all.

 

So, yes, please, form new CRL teams for each of the two newer versions of red armor (gentle giant figure/statue version era and newer era crimson version) and have them reviewed and added to the database along with the original red armor CRL. It will be nice to see all versions covered in the database and due recognition given to all.

 

TD

[Darth Emphatic[CMD-DWM]]

Woah, let's everyone calm down here. I'm gonna to move this conversation offline for a bit so we can get some perspective and return here to a productive conversation.

[ThomasDurbin[TX]]

I agree, Steve. There is too much inconsistency now in this thread and I see how confusion has arisen. I hope it can be restarted from a clean slate.

No one is preventing a new CRL for newer, different versions deemed appropriate from being written.

Agreeing on what versions are needed has become problematic.

The existing CRL covers red armor based on one original reference in the SW Expanded Universe and it's not simply a TK painted red/pulled from red ABS.

Let's calmly walk through this. I'll share the history of red armor as I recall it.

 

I think we need to answer several questions and push this effort in a positive direction with actionable conclusions/agreements. I'll start over and present what I know of the history of red armor since I am one of very few people with it and was the only one with red armor at some big events for a long time, including Celebrations. It's been nice to see more red armor at the last 2 Celebrations. Thanks for bearing with me on a clean new start here.

 

The original dozen or so sets of red armor are based on a single reference with no back details visible and other parts obscured. Hence the default to mostly look like a TK but some differences exist between TKs and the Lumiya's Royal Guard art reference. I believe minor corrections to the existing CRL we made for that costume are needed. FX was the armor version of that era and it is accepted that only about a dozen red sets were made for some special project about which we don't have any information at this time. I'd love to find the original maker and get the background story.

The original red armor outfits belonging to active members are legitimate, legion-approved costumes. Are we in agreement on that point?

 

We do have a problem with justification of some things regarding (newer and original) red armor. The Lumiya's Royal Guard reference art shows large helmets, no sniper plate on left knee, back not visible for verification, details we failed to add to the existing CRL during the last edit. I'd like to make those corrections.

 

Also, adding confusion, somewhere along the way someone "invented" a definition of "Magma Trooper" and put it on wookieepedia and later added a photo of the mostly red Gentle Giant statue/figure. There is no reference in SW universe that I have found that matches the wookieepedia entry and that description is not corroborated by the text of the Lumiya story of reference where they are called "Crimson-clad stormtroopers" and described by this wording "...two squads were selected from the Emperor's Royal Guardsmen, and are distinguished by their red stormtrooper armor". Nothing about magma or lava or flamethrowers as reported in the wookieepedia entry. I'd like to see anything that corroborates this description. Truly, Red armor is mostly clouded in mystery and, as noted, only one piece of SW universe art for reference existed when it was first added to the Legion's list of approved costumes. No CRL existed until we wrote the existing CRL a few years ago. At about that time (5 or 6 years ago?) there was a long-awaited run of red armor, but it was simply a red version of a more recent TK kit and only about 29 sets were made.

 

At some point before we wrote the CRL and the newer 29 sets of red armor were made came the Gentle Giant statue/figure. It may have been approved by Lucasfilm, but... Is it something on which a costume and/or a CRL can be based?

It's only a toy, really, and not a reference of the normally required type from a comic, novel, movie, show, or any part of the SW Expanded Universe. Is it a legitimate basis for a 501st-approved costume? I think that's a tough one to sell, but if you have Legion precedent that legitimizes it that would be good. It's been a stretch connecting the Gentle Giant statue to the Lumiya's Royal Guard reference and associated original approved red armor costumes. They differ significantly. Unfortunately, that was glossed over and basic FISD TK standards have been used for Spec Ops red armor as a default. We did not adequately cover this issue during the creation of the existing CRL, but that effort was needed to cover what we had.

The sad fact is that references for red armor are few, with possibly only one legitimate one by early Legion standards, in the SW Expanded Universe.

 

But, now we have a new red trooper action figure being called crimson trooper and I have read reviews of it that refer to Galaxy Magazine #3 which includes the Lumiya story and only art reference we have as previously described. The new figure differs noticeably from the Lumiya story (Galaxy Magazing #3) art reference. Has anyone got reference material from the new SW universe on these new Crimson troopers? Is it also only a toy or is it mentioned in any SW literature (verbal or art reference) or in any of the new games? We seem to truly need hard references. Otherwise, red armor is caught in a trap where it appears that the newer costumes are based on white armor runs and toys and not on true SW Universe references normally required. The original stuff got approved because it was really cool (and still is if I do say so myself LOL) and there was one somewhat obscure art reference in the SW Expanded Universe of the time.

 

Lastly, can we agree to do our best to work together to complete this history of red troopers in the SW universe starting with the original big bubble-helmeted version shown as Lumiya's Royal Guard in Galaxy Magazine #3 and moving forward? Please provide info that supplements what I have compiled during about the past 9 years since I first got one of the original red armor kits.

 

Are there red troopers in any of the SW Games that we need to review? Is the Crimson trooper only in the new set of action figures? Are they mentioned in any new books or comics or anywhere notable? If the Spec Ops command staff wants to evaluate whether or not each reference meets Legion requirements to be the basis for an approved costume, that would be appreciated.

 

This is much longer than intended. I hope folks find it to be a useful history of red armor in the Legion and otherwise in the SW universe.

 

I tried to slide out of this before and I'd like to leave the task of writing a new CRL for any newer approved variations (ala FISD example for permutations of white armor) to folks wearing the newer armor. There are only a few sets like mine in existence and they were approved long ago and remain in use. I was happy to write the existing CRL before all these new issues arose for folks wanting to make red armor but with no good set of SW references. I would like to make amendments to the existing CRL to clarify some points based on a more detailed analysis of the Lumiya's Royal Guard reference as previously noted.

I don't have any preference regarding later versions, but a new CRL based on the newer, non-Lumiya versions that are applicable will surely be of great benefit.

I wish everyone well.

TD

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

We are agreement that previous FX kits that already (key word is already) have been approved from time past but since then FX Helmet is not approvable. We have gone over this already and we all know that as a fact that was never an issue. However if someone chooses to buy an FX kit (which i have no idea why since we have ata wtf and some other more accurate) they would have to replace the helmet and most likely do modifications so I do not encourage people to buy old FX kits does that make sense?

 

Here is the thing with the old lumiya reference it is art work and art work tends to be a bit sketchy. The mere fact that it does not show the back of the costume is more than enough for me to say no lets not include that style in the current CRL that makes no sense and I do not see any justification to be made to add that to the current CRL. Does that make any sense?

 

I will bring up this point from what you said about the comic book I am in total agreement with changing the name from magma trooper to crimson storm trooper. In fact i think there should be a poll for members to decide on that. I think that is a good point that comic reference is crimson and not to mention the latest black series toys mention us as crimson storm trooper so i am all for that. Especially if its more canon and more accurate. Not to mention its moving towards the future and not dwelling on the past.

 

Another point a lot of what you talk about dwells on the past and putting past items in the current CRL. I dont see a purpose because the original CRL has what was provided at the time and is in need of update for the present and future so a lot of this 'past" stuff being added makes no sense and is outdated. I think during the time when things where being brought on board those changes should have been made but to me its not relevant for now and is inaccurate. We have more references which are toys with the black series especially and (now I am speculating) a potential move to make this more available and out there. Look at the amount of merch that is present now for these vs only a $300 gentle giant figure.

 

The armor that was made did not make huge bobbled headed helmets because it looks rather horrible and not to mention when the gentle giant statue came out that was approved by lucasfilm as you mentioned so that to me has a bit more valid just because it is a 360 degree presentation that has the details from the front and back. so basing the current CRL off of that I think is a better idea than going with bobble head. I say that only because there is no 360 degree view in the comic. Now if there was more detail instead of a more "concept art presentation" then this would have been a totally different story. Does that make sense?

 

Again the history is a bit fuzzy but its in the past and again those concerns to me should have been brought up way back when this was all beginning not now. Because now you run the risk of having several people unapproved due to inaccuracies in the current CRL. I can probably speak for everyone that has a magma trooper whatever maker it is wont be ok with that on any level. So leave that as is and lets head towards the future with what is presented to us now. If you are a history buff then by all means look up the information maybe even provide a educational section but it doe not belong in the CRL.

 

From what i can tell with the new crimson they basically look like red TK's which is what we have described in the current CRL already since it is based of off TK's so I am not following what the issue is with that.

The CRL does not reflect the old lumiya comic book style in fact it jumped ahead and reflects the new already so again going back to it to reflect old in that same CRL

makes no sense. Even your picture literally reflects the new minus the FX bucket.

 

 

So how about this because i just popped into the CRL section to see if storm trooper concept armor is an option for approval. What about the lumiya comic book style reference being the magma/crimson concept armor? With the ugly bobble head etc meaning your armor wouldn't qualify because its no where near what is presented in the comic. So it would be possible to produce a concept magma trooper CRL based on the star wars magazine. So someone would have to make the entire armor suit exactly to spec of how it is in the comic book.Go through the process of creating the CRL and being approved.

 

Even if technically speaking what we have reflects the gentle giant toy and will be updated to reflect the new toys its already been passed the approval line with 501st legion and there is nothing wrong with having the toy as a reference. I am not interested in going backwards at an attempt to literally unapprove every single magmatrooper just because we dont reflect concept art in a magazine but instead reflect a toy that was created because of the magazine concept art. The toy was approved by lucasfilm at the time and for me that is plenty enough.

 

To sum up essentially there could be 2 CRL's created. One for the old ugly bobble head big thighs etc concept art magamtrooper(crimson rooper) and one for the current magmatrooper (crimson stormtrooper) based off the gentle giant/black series toys etc. For anyone wanting to make the concept art they would have to recreate a whole new outfit because what everyone has now does not reflect what is in the comic book and does not pass off as it. Also I am in disagreement with telling everyone they are unapproved because people failed at creating the correct CRL's at the time. That is on them and that is in the past. What we have is what we got and we can continue to build on it looking towards the future. All of this has been a rather fun history lesson but thats all it is a history lesson. It shows what not to do going forward in the future when creating CRL's and it also goes to show that trying to over do it and over think things will create unnecessary problems.

 

As far as making CRL's based on new sets of armor by different creators such as ata, WTF, anovos etc I feel is completely unnecessary. They all are working from the same basic information we have.

Old CRL should just be updated to reflect the new changes. If you want to create a new CRL based off lumiya reference be my guest but keep in mind your armor falls into the new not the old because it does not reflect the old lumiya style and if that is what you are going for again as I mentioned it would need to be made from scratch and not just pulling parts from the armor based off the toy and saying its the same thing it is not.

That brings the total of CRL's to 2.

1. Magmatrooper concept art from the lumiya comic

2. Magmatrooper/crimson from the gentle giant,black series and whatever toy that will be made in the future. (which is what we already have and needs to be updated)

 

Not going to lie this conversation about this whole thing has gotten out of hand and has gotten to a point of well ridiculous. All of the things mentioned to me are irrelevant and are fun to know if you are interested in history or trivia. It really bears no relevance to wanting to update an existing CRL to reflect the up to date helmet and armor that looks better than what we had. That literally was all that was requested now we are 4 pages deep in a thread with all this history lesson and for what? To find out the CRL created was based off the gentle giant toy and not the magazine reference not much of a scandal there.

 

Anyway this was interesting I hope I was clear in what I said and I hope we can honestly put this to rest and move on with updating/modifying the CRL.So again I am not interested nor is there any need to create a 3rd CRL.

 

D

 

 

Side note: Which if i am not mistaken in my star wars re fence book (which is huge) refers to the red as magma but let me double check and get back to you.

[Darth Emphatic[CMD-DWM]]

There is some information I hope to provide that is relevant to costume/crl develop in the legion and plays a role in what we are discussion. One thing to note is that an action figure tends to make a poor base for a costume and typically will not be approved as sole source. There are exceptions to that, but typically when a costume shares a common well-sourced foundation. An example being the FO Elite and it's well sourced foundation in the FO Stormtrooper. Also, something like a highly-detailed gentle giant statue is not viewed the same way as a hasbro action figure. That being said, Spec Ops is a detachment of assumption due to the limited sources for our costumes .

 

So, let's pretty much take the action figure sole reference not working as solid reference as gospel for now. That means there needs to be additional context to generate a new CRL. That is typically found in the movies, TV shows, or comic books. However, it's not just a matter of it appearing in one of those, there needs to be a compelling argument that it is not simple a liberty being taken with the better known existing costume. Sadly, we see that a lot with art. The artist interpretation is not quite what we know to be right. If you took all the artist renderings of white stormtroopers out there, you'd have 100's of variants. That will never work.

 

I think that eliminates a new/separate CRL for the action figure unless new sources develop. And, not just new sources, but ones that clearly show this is a different from our current magma trooper.

 

What's left is the difference between the comic and the foundation of a standard stormtrooper. Does that deserve a completely separate CRL? I would say no as we aren't making an argument for this being a different trooper. Where I do think it fits is with my old idea that we can have two tiers of level 2 requirements for many of our costumes - one that provides a higher level of the screen compatible version of the costume and one that is more true to the art. I would very much support take the magma trooper down that path if someone wants to develop the requirements for the comic/art version of the costume which needs to just provide details for the costume parts that are different.

 

As for the name, I don't strongly lean in either direction. I support a poll being put up to allow a membership vote on the name of the costume. This would be a detachment vote, not just a magma roster vote as it is a change that affects the entire detachment. Dorothy, if you would like to post a new poll thread with the reason for the name change, please go ahead.

 

P.S. existing approved costumes with now deprecated pieces are always grandfathered in. However, if that costume was sold to another trooper, the costume would have to be approved again and would fail if it is an FX bucket. What would happen if we had a level 2 comic/art variant for the costume would depend on the requirements of the L2.

 

P.S.S. I hope this helps with where I stand on this .

[ThomasDurbin[TX]]

My last offering. I believe I must step out of CRL discussions now (for real). I hope to see many of you out there trooping. I'll be in the original red armor rocking it as long as possible!

 

I know that we missed some things when creating the existing CRL and got distracted by trying to stretch it to help include armor of newer/different origin. Therefore, when a new discussion about CRLs began, I realized it was time to try to get it redone more correctly as best can be done and probably 2 CRLs are needed.

 

I agree that a new CRL is needed.

The original red armor CRL meant to be based on the Lumiya story art is something we can put in the archives for those that need it since it only applies to a dozen or so approved costumes and is part of our history as well as our present as long as a few of us are still rocking the original red costumes. I'd like to see it edited and archived, but no worries either way.

 

The group should make a new CRL to cover more recent/new red armor based on any more recent canon references to be found and if necessary use the action figure toys/statue that are essentially red TKs with maybe a few variances. The point I think that was being missed is that there is not a set of good references. Toys and costumes are normally products based on canon characters. In this case, they are being treated as the canon items and it has become a circular reference. That's not normal, but red is really cool and it's here to stay!

 

Of course, I agree that no one should lose Legion status and never meant to be interpreted as implying that any costume that's "in" should be disqualified. Several times, I was made to feel that someone wants to eject the original red armor and that specific person even stated that I should have to "upgrade" my helmet. That's not how the Legion does things. Hopefully, that issue is now understood in that person's mind. The Legion doesn't/shouldn't/can't order changes to be made to approved costumes.

 

The case for red armor described in your new CRL should be bolstered by any verbal/written references to red and/or crimson stormtroopers that can be found in SW universe canon. That should help folks understand things. It will be interesting to see what details can be gleaned from the new action figure toys and how close to identical to TKs they are, so the new CRL may be nearly identical to something existing for white armor and relatively easily created.

 

I don't agree with the opinion that the original red armor with big helmets is not close enough to the Lumiya story art. I think some folks are biased against helmets of larger size. I disagree with FISD on some of those issues. That's what makes Spec Ops unique and separate. We must agree to disagree on helmet sizing and move on.

Also, use of the term "outdated" caused concern. Things can be old or based on an old reference, but that doesn't make them outdated or inapplicable. I'm not hopeful that will be taken as meant and understood. Let's please leave it at that. Agree to disagree as needed.

 

In closing, I'm simply looking at a minor case in the bigger picture, the original dozen or so suits built based on one specific art reference that accompanied a short story. Along the way, major concerns were raised when approved costumes were being called outdated and comments about forcing a helmet change were made. I don't have time to worry about this stuff. It takes the fun out of something as silly and simple as being plastic-suited space people trying to make people smile.

 

I think we are in a good place now and I believe I understand where others are at on issues. I hope there are no more misinterpretations of my comments.

 

I wish you the best of luck with writing your CRL. I'll look for the old CRL and historical work in appropriate archives and thank all those that contributed to what was a decent effort to create something where nothing existed and had not much more than one item of art and a lot of lore as a basis. We have learned much since then.

 

I do hope the history is enjoyable and enlightening. Please consider the previous post I provided as the first version of the History of Red Armor. Hopefully, there is a proper place for that documentation and others will add to it as the story unfolds.

 

Peace and best wishes,

TD

 

 

 

 

We are agreement that previous FX kits that already (key word is already) have been approved from time past but since then FX Helmet is not approvable. We have gone over this already and we all know that as a fact that was never an issue. However if someone chooses to buy an FX kit (which i have no idea why since we have ata wtf and some other more accurate) they would have to replace the helmet and most likely do modifications so I do not encourage people to buy old FX kits does that make sense?

 

Here is the thing with the old lumiya reference it is art work and art work tends to be a bit sketchy. The mere fact that it does not show the back of the costume is more than enough for me to say no lets not include that style in the current CRL that makes no sense and I do not see any justification to be made to add that to the current CRL. Does that make any sense?

 

I will bring up this point from what you said about the comic book I am in total agreement with changing the name from magma trooper to crimson storm trooper. In fact i think there should be a poll for members to decide on that. I think that is a good point that comic reference is crimson and not to mention the latest black series toys mention us as crimson storm trooper so i am all for that. Especially if its more canon and more accurate. Not to mention its moving towards the future and not dwelling on the past.

 

Another point a lot of what you talk about dwells on the past and putting past items in the current CRL. I dont see a purpose because the original CRL has what was provided at the time and is in need of update for the present and future so a lot of this 'past" stuff being added makes no sense and is outdated. I think during the time when things where being brought on board those changes should have been made but to me its not relevant for now and is inaccurate. We have more references which are toys with the black series especially and (now I am speculating) a potential move to make this more available and out there. Look at the amount of merch that is present now for these vs only a $300 gentle giant figure.

 

The armor that was made did not make huge bobbled headed helmets because it looks rather horrible and not to mention when the gentle giant statue came out that was approved by lucasfilm as you mentioned so that to me has a bit more valid just because it is a 360 degree presentation that has the details from the front and back. so basing the current CRL off of that I think is a better idea than going with bobble head. I say that only because there is no 360 degree view in the comic. Now if there was more detail instead of a more "concept art presentation" then this would have been a totally different story. Does that make sense?

 

Again the history is a bit fuzzy but its in the past and again those concerns to me should have been brought up way back when this was all beginning not now. Because now you run the risk of having several people unapproved due to inaccuracies in the current CRL. I can probably speak for everyone that has a magma trooper whatever maker it is wont be ok with that on any level. So leave that as is and lets head towards the future with what is presented to us now. If you are a history buff then by all means look up the information maybe even provide a educational section but it doe not belong in the CRL.

 

From what i can tell with the new crimson they basically look like red TK's which is what we have described in the current CRL already since it is based of off TK's so I am not following what the issue is with that.

The CRL does not reflect the old lumiya comic book style in fact it jumped ahead and reflects the new already so again going back to it to reflect old in that same CRL

makes no sense. Even your picture literally reflects the new minus the FX bucket.

 

 

So how about this because i just popped into the CRL section to see if storm trooper concept armor is an option for approval. What about the lumiya comic book style reference being the magma/crimson concept armor? With the ugly bobble head etc meaning your armor wouldn't qualify because its no where near what is presented in the comic. So it would be possible to produce a concept magma trooper CRL based on the star wars magazine. So someone would have to make the entire armor suit exactly to spec of how it is in the comic book.Go through the process of creating the CRL and being approved.

 

Even if technically speaking what we have reflects the gentle giant toy and will be updated to reflect the new toys its already been passed the approval line with 501st legion and there is nothing wrong with having the toy as a reference. I am not interested in going backwards at an attempt to literally unapprove every single magmatrooper just because we dont reflect concept art in a magazine but instead reflect a toy that was created because of the magazine concept art. The toy was approved by lucasfilm at the time and for me that is plenty enough.

 

To sum up essentially there could be 2 CRL's created. One for the old ugly bobble head big thighs etc concept art magamtrooper(crimson rooper) and one for the current magmatrooper (crimson stormtrooper) based off the gentle giant/black series toys etc. For anyone wanting to make the concept art they would have to recreate a whole new outfit because what everyone has now does not reflect what is in the comic book and does not pass off as it. Also I am in disagreement with telling everyone they are unapproved because people failed at creating the correct CRL's at the time. That is on them and that is in the past. What we have is what we got and we can continue to build on it looking towards the future. All of this has been a rather fun history lesson but thats all it is a history lesson. It shows what not to do going forward in the future when creating CRL's and it also goes to show that trying to over do it and over think things will create unnecessary problems.

 

As far as making CRL's based on new sets of armor by different creators such as ata, WTF, anovos etc I feel is completely unnecessary. They all are working from the same basic information we have.

Old CRL should just be updated to reflect the new changes. If you want to create a new CRL based off lumiya reference be my guest but keep in mind your armor falls into the new not the old because it does not reflect the old lumiya style and if that is what you are going for again as I mentioned it would need to be made from scratch and not just pulling parts from the armor based off the toy and saying its the same thing it is not.

That brings the total of CRL's to 2.

1. Magmatrooper concept art from the lumiya comic

2. Magmatrooper/crimson from the gentle giant,black series and whatever toy that will be made in the future. (which is what we already have and needs to be updated)

 

Not going to lie this conversation about this whole thing has gotten out of hand and has gotten to a point of well ridiculous. All of the things mentioned to me are irrelevant and are fun to know if you are interested in history or trivia. It really bears no relevance to wanting to update an existing CRL to reflect the up to date helmet and armor that looks better than what we had. That literally was all that was requested now we are 4 pages deep in a thread with all this history lesson and for what? To find out the CRL created was based off the gentle giant toy and not the magazine reference not much of a scandal there.

 

Anyway this was interesting I hope I was clear in what I said and I hope we can honestly put this to rest and move on with updating/modifying the CRL.So again I am not interested nor is there any need to create a 3rd CRL.

 

D

 

 

Side note: Which if i am not mistaken in my star wars re fence book (which is huge) refers to the red as magma but let me double check and get back to you.

[ThomasDurbin[TX]]

Thank you and good luck! Send me a private message if you want reference material or have questions that I may be able to answer.

 

Cheers!

TD

 

PS GO SPEC OPS! Still the coolest SW costumes!

 

 

There is some information I hope to provide that is relevant to costume/crl develop in the legion and plays a role in what we are discussion. One thing to note is that an action figure tends to make a poor base for a costume and typically will not be approved as sole source. There are exceptions to that, but typically when a costume shares a common well-sourced foundation. An example being the FO Elite and it's well sourced foundation in the FO Stormtrooper. Also, something like a highly-detailed gentle giant statue is not viewed the same way as a hasbro action figure. That being said, Spec Ops is a detachment of assumption due to the limited sources for our costumes .

 

So, let's pretty much take the action figure sole reference not working as solid reference as gospel for now. That means there needs to be additional context to generate a new CRL. That is typically found in the movies, TV shows, or comic books. However, it's not just a matter of it appearing in one of those, there needs to be a compelling argument that it is not simple a liberty being taken with the better known existing costume. Sadly, we see that a lot with art. The artist interpretation is not quite what we know to be right. If you took all the artist renderings of white stormtroopers out there, you'd have 100's of variants. That will never work.

 

I think that eliminates a new/separate CRL for the action figure unless new sources develop. And, not just new sources, but ones that clearly show this is a different from our current magma trooper.

 

What's left is the difference between the comic and the foundation of a standard stormtrooper. Does that deserve a completely separate CRL? I would say no as we aren't making an argument for this being a different trooper. Where I do think it fits is with my old idea that we can have two tiers of level 2 requirements for many of our costumes - one that provides a higher level of the screen compatible version of the costume and one that is more true to the art. I would very much support take the magma trooper down that path if someone wants to develop the requirements for the comic/art version of the costume which needs to just provide details for the costume parts that are different.

 

As for the name, I don't strongly lean in either direction. I support a poll being put up to allow a membership vote on the name of the costume. This would be a detachment vote, not just a magma roster vote as it is a change that affects the entire detachment. Dorothy, if you would like to post a new poll thread with the reason for the name change, please go ahead.

 

P.S. existing approved costumes with now deprecated pieces are always grandfathered in. However, if that costume was sold to another trooper, the costume would have to be approved again and would fail if it is an FX bucket. What would happen if we had a level 2 comic/art variant for the costume would depend on the requirements of the L2.

 

P.S.S. I hope this helps with where I stand on this .

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

I look forward to the current CRL being updated with the appropriate information and not being archived because it doesn't need to be. Nothing wrong with recycling what we have and improving upon it. No reason to "reinvent the wheel" at this point. anytime we need to make an update to a CRL we use what is there and add unless its a completely different costume. For example the shadow stormtroopers from TFU are way different from battlefront and different from the original hence 3 CRL's

We have a completely different magmatrooper which is FISD so technically we kind of do have 2 CRL's for two different costumes of the same name which makes sense.

Subtle differences don't warrant a full decked out new CRL.

 

As far as using the term "outdated" there really is no sugar coating about that when something is literally out of date.

As far as the current CRL reflecting the lumiya comic book variants it does not and more reflects the gentle giant statue which took its inspiration from the comic book variant and the movie TK's.

 

I honestly had a bunch of trading cards made that say magmatrooper so going to hold off on that poll lol but if anyone feels strongly about it let me know.

 

The history was enjoyable and honestly i think maybe we can have a separate forum section for history of all the costumes we have. I think it would be awesome for people that are history buffs and can share some information they research and discover I am all for that 100%.

 

Just to let you know some of your comments I personally feel have different intentions then what you might be trying to intend. I do feel that we might have gained a small percentage of being on the same page and understanding but that is better than nothing. Anyways i to will continue to wear my magmatrooper costume proudly and continue to have fun regardless.

 

Looking forward to the future cheers.

[Darth Emphatic[CMD-DWM]]

My last offering. I believe I must step out of CRL discussions now (for real). I hope to see many of you out there trooping. I'll be in the original red armor rocking it as long as possible!

 

I know that we missed some things when creating the existing CRL and got distracted by trying to stretch it to help include armor of newer/different origin. Therefore, when a new discussion about CRLs began, I realized it was time to try to get it redone more correctly as best can be done and probably 2 CRLs are needed.

 

I agree that a new CRL is needed.

The original red armor CRL meant to be based on the Lumiya story art is something we can put in the archives for those that need it since it only applies to a dozen or so approved costumes and is part of our history as well as our present as long as a few of us are still rocking the original red costumes. I'd like to see it edited and archived, but no worries either way.

 

The group should make a new CRL to cover more recent/new red armor based on any more recent canon references to be found and if necessary use the action figure toys/statue that are essentially red TKs with maybe a few variances. The point I think that was being missed is that there is not a set of good references. Toys and costumes are normally products based on canon characters. In this case, they are being treated as the canon items and it has become a circular reference. That's not normal, but red is really cool and it's here to stay!

 

Of course, I agree that no one should lose Legion status and never meant to be interpreted as implying that any costume that's "in" should be disqualified. Several times, I was made to feel that someone wants to eject the original red armor and that specific person even stated that I should have to "upgrade" my helmet. That's not how the Legion does things. Hopefully, that issue is now understood in that person's mind. The Legion doesn't/shouldn't/can't order changes to be made to approved costumes.

 

The case for red armor described in your new CRL should be bolstered by any verbal/written references to red and/or crimson stormtroopers that can be found in SW universe canon. That should help folks understand things. It will be interesting to see what details can be gleaned from the new action figure toys and how close to identical to TKs they are, so the new CRL may be nearly identical to something existing for white armor and relatively easily created.

 

I don't agree with the opinion that the original red armor with big helmets is not close enough to the Lumiya story art. I think some folks are biased against helmets of larger size. I disagree with FISD on some of those issues. That's what makes Spec Ops unique and separate. We must agree to disagree on helmet sizing and move on.

Also, use of the term "outdated" caused concern. Things can be old or based on an old reference, but that doesn't make them outdated or inapplicable. I'm not hopeful that will be taken as meant and understood. Let's please leave it at that. Agree to disagree as needed.

 

In closing, I'm simply looking at a minor case in the bigger picture, the original dozen or so suits built based on one specific art reference that accompanied a short story. Along the way, major concerns were raised when approved costumes were being called outdated and comments about forcing a helmet change were made. I don't have time to worry about this stuff. It takes the fun out of something as silly and simple as being plastic-suited space people trying to make people smile.

 

I think we are in a good place now and I believe I understand where others are at on issues. I hope there are no more misinterpretations of my comments.

 

I wish you the best of luck with writing your CRL. I'll look for the old CRL and historical work in appropriate archives and thank all those that contributed to what was a decent effort to create something where nothing existed and had not much more than one item of art and a lot of lore as a basis. We have learned much since then.

 

I do hope the history is enjoyable and enlightening. Please consider the previous post I provided as the first version of the History of Red Armor. Hopefully, there is a proper place for that documentation and others will add to it as the story unfolds.

 

Peace and best wishes,

TD

 

Thomas, I appreciate your approach and perspective here. We'll continue to evaluate and address what might be short-comings. I don't think we need to have an archived CRL. Instead, we can look to where we can incorporate what might be more source accurate both in art/comic and in the screen (where applicable). I'd like you to be directly involved in what you'd see as art/comic related requirements for the costume.

[ThomasDurbin[TX]]

I finally wrote a CRL that describes Lumiya's Royal Guard Troopers.  I know it only applies to about a dozen sets of armor from a long time ago, but they are approved and will be around, hopefully, for a long time.  I recognize them as distinct and I like the term Concept Costume that was mentioned a time or two.  It's a great item for the SW and Legion and Costuming history archives, too.  
Accept the LRGT CRL as a novelty and for what it's worth to you.  Share it, ignore it, add it to the Legion CRLs in the TX section, or forward it to the Crayon section as a Concept Costume of the Royal Guard.  No worries.  I know it's only meaningful to a few people.  I'm not advocating anything at this point.  I mostly wrote this for my own peace of mind and due to my own interest in the subject.  That, and I like to get things as close to accurate as possible.  Always striving to improve the old and ensure the new is as good as it can be.  

Dang, got this far and the attachment system won't let me attach either the PDF version or the Word version.  

If anyone wants a copy of it, send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the PDF version.   

Happy Trooping and I hope we have a great Spec Ops showing at Celebration IX Chicago!   

[RAIDER[COTG]]

7 minutes ago, ThomasDurbin said:

I finally wrote a CRL that describes Lumiya's Royal Guard Troopers.  I know it only applies to about a dozen sets of armor from a long time ago, but they are approved and will be around, hopefully, for a long time.  I recognize them as distinct and I like the term Concept Costume that was mentioned a time or two.  It's a great item for the SW and Legion and Costuming history archives, too.  
Accept the LRGT CRL as a novelty and for what it's worth to you.  Share it, ignore it, add it to the Legion CRLs in the TX section, or forward it to the Crayon section as a Concept Costume of the Royal Guard.  No worries.  I know it's only meaningful to a few people.  I'm not advocating anything at this point.  I mostly wrote this for my own peace of mind and due to my own interest in the subject.  That, and I like to get things as close to accurate as possible.  Always striving to improve the old and ensure the new is as good as it can be.  

Dang, got this far and the attachment system won't let me attach either the PDF version or the Word version.  

If anyone wants a copy of it, send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the PDF version.   

Happy Trooping and I hope we have a great Spec Ops showing at Celebration IX Chicago!   

@ThomasDurbin I read through this thread (and will re-read it again to make sure I'm up to speed).  I will PM you my email so you can forward it to me and I will make sure the incoming CRL team takes a look at it at the very least.  The standards for creating new CRLs haven't changed (referencing back to what Darth Emphatic made mention of in above posts), but looking at it can't hurt anything.  PM incoming.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Sent you a PM. I'm a nerd for CRL stuff, so I'd like to check it out.

[superbee[501st]]

This is looking really good so far . 
But I’m not seeing anything about ESB options, over 3 years ago when I built my Magma there was opinions on building with the ESB version ( basically 3 difference Black painted frown, clam shell hand guards , wearing holster on the right side and ESB E11 . ) 

Esb option are mentioned in the Specialist requirements. 

 

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Topic locked.  Old update completed.