proposal for crl changes / shadow scout

[762s[TX]]

as suggested in this thread http://forum.501stsp...trapping-lvl-2/

 

i would like to make a proposal for some changes to the shadow scout crl

 

please, feel free to comment, give constructive criticism and add reference photos

 

references will be posted at the end of this proposal.

 

so, lets get started!

 

the crl will be in red and after the crl i will state a proposal for changes

 

1.) special notes:

 

"The armor parts shall be film-accurate or close approximation in gloss or semi-gloss black and made from one of these types of materials or like materials: Fiberglass, ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene), or HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene)."

 

i read around this forum and alot of shadow scouts have not used these 2 sheens of paint.

the more popular sheen of paint used is matte which is closer to a flat than semigloss.

and using some references from figurines i think this part of the crl should read:

 

~ The armor parts can be in gloss, semi-gloss, matte or flat black with contrasting black on the details, ie: greeblies, helmet details/decals

 

 

2.) helmet details:

• For level two certification (if applicable):
  
• Film-accurate snout detail and aerator with accurate parts, mounted onto a plate and painted a contrasting Black to the Armour.
  
• Film-accurate squared emblem located on the left faceplate, Film-accurate helmet snout/aerator detail, mounted onto a plate and painted a contrasting black to the helmet
  
• Film-accurate rear helmet "bar code]For level two certification (if applicable):
  
• Chest Armor includes the rectangular contrasting black strip on the lower right breast.
  

with the suggested changes in the color of the armor and details above the chest armor section could be changed as well to read something like this:

~For 501st approval

• There is a recessed rectangular area present over the right breast that may be painted gray, silver or a contrasting black to the rest of the armor
  
• There can be a silver imperial cog on the left chest armor
  

3.) Flight Suit

 

For 501st approval:

• The undersuit is a one or two-piece black textile suit, such as military flightsuits, motorcycle racing suits, industrial work clothing (Dickies), or similar suit modified appropriately.
  
  
• Suit does not have any visible labels, logos, zippers or pockets (including built in flight suit pockets).
  

For level two certification (if applicable)

• All visible zippers and pockets (except for primary zipper) removed.
  

~For 501st approval

• The under suit is a one or two piece black, gray or dark grey/blue textile suit ...........
  

~REMOVE:

~ For level two certification (if applicable)

• All visible zippers and pockets (except primary zipper) removed
  

this is a repeat of the "for 501st approval(basic)" bullet point

 

 

4.) front armor

 

For 501st approval:

• There is a recessed rectangular area present over the right breast that may be painted flat black or left unfinished.
  

For level two certification (if applicable):

• Chest Armor includes the rectangular contrasting black strip on the lower right breast.
  

 

~For 501st approval

• There is a recessed rectangular area present over the right breast that may be painted a contrasting black to the armor, gray or silver
  

~ADD

• a silver imperial cog can be added to the upper left breast armor
  

~REMOVE:

~ For level two certification (if applicable)

• Chest armor includes the rectanglar contrasting black strip on the lower right breast
  

this ends up being a repeat of the "for 501st approval(basic)" bullet point

 

 

 

 

5.) back armor:

 

For 501st approval:

• The top of the tank is flat with a detail piece painted matte black.
  
• The tank may have a matte black stripe detail.
  
• Scouts may have additional matte black "rank indicators" that are present on the right side of the tank and can number anywhere from 0 to 6 stripes.
  

For level two certification (if applicable):

• Bullet tank on the Back Armor has film-accurate tank topper detail painted entirely black. Proper pin striping and single rivet to hold the bottom of the tank.
  

okay ...

we see the use of matte black details, and like what was pointed out above alot of shadow scouts using matte black for their armor so, this is an area that needs a change too to read something like this:

 

~ For 501st approval

• The top of tank is a contrasting black to the armor
  
• The tank may have a red stripe detail
  
• Rank indicators, 0 to 6 stripes, are present on the right side of the tank and are contrasting black to the armor
  
• Bullet tank on the back armor has proper pin stripping
  
• a single rivet to hold the top of the tank mounted through the center of the tank topper
  
• a single rivet to hold the bottom of the tank
  

~ NO level two certification

 

 

 

6.) cummerbund:

 

For 501st approval:

• Made out of black heavy cotton fabric and closes in back with velcro.
  
• Pouches are made of a matching black fabric and mounted to touch the Chest Armor and slightly overlap the Belt.
  

suggest adding and changing this to read:

 

~ For 501st approval

• Made out of black heavy cotton fabric and closes in the back with 2" wide velcro
  
• Pouches can made of a matching or contrasting black fabric and mounted to touch the chest armor and may overlap the belt slightly or sit just on top of it
  

ADD:

~ For level two certification:

• Cod Piece can not be bunched/wrinkled up
  

7.) belt:

 

For 501st approval:

The back of the belt has a rectangular black box with short black corrugated hose. Hanging from the sides of the belt are hip boxes, also made out of hard material. These are connected to the belt by black textile straps. For level two certification (if applicable)

• Straps used for drop boxes are made with a 40mm (1 1/2") black cotton webbing.
  
  • Nylon webbing is inaccurate.
    

  [*]Thermal Detonator Black belt canister tube has concave end caps secured on each end.

~ suggest adding and changing this to read:

 

 

~ For 501st approval

• the back of the bels has a rectangular black box with either a gray or black corrugated hose
  
• hanging from the sides of the belt are hip boxes, also made out of hard material. these are connected to the belt by gray or black textile straps.
  

~ For level two certification:

• straps used drop boxes are made with a 40mm(1 1/2") gray or black cotton webbing
  

~ nylon webbing is inaccurate

• thermal detonator gray or black belt canister tube has concave end caps secured on each end.
  

8.) upper arm armor (elbow armor)

 

~ ADD to this section

• Greeblies can be painted gray or a contrasting black to the rest of the armor
  

below, the first pic is a references i found and the other 2 are pictures i took of the action figures for what i am proposing above:

 

micro machines titanium series shadow scout w/speeder bike

~ you can see the silver imperial cog, gray snout detail, gray flight suit and flat black armor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 3/4" action figure

~ you can see the silver imperial cog, gray snout detail, gray strapping for the hip boxes, gray flight suit and flat black armor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6" action figure

~ you can see the silver imperial cog, silver details on helmet, gray snout with silver aerator, dark gray/blue flight suit, silver rectangular detail on right chest, red stripe on top of tank,

gray detonator tube, gray upper armor greeblies and matte black armor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks and look forward to working on this with you all.

Edited March 8, 2018 by 762s

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Thanks for doing some leg work here Ken. I'm sure Antje and Steve will chime in...

 

Regarding paint sheens...I do not believe "matte" (which is more synonymous with "flat" correct?) is the sheen you're seeing troopers use. The majority of troopers are doing either gloss (typically from the original pull of their plastic) or satin...which is a closer cousin to semi-gloss. I remember this being a distinct question during my build and Chef clarifying the paint sheens with me. Matte was never mentioned in those convos...only satin, semi-gloss, or gloss.

 

I'd be interested to see the "why" behind some of the TB adjustments (mostly so I can learn lol) particularly regarding strapping measures for level 2 and required measures being added for velcro in spots for basic approval...most of those seem a copy/paste your suggesting here. I'ma hop over into the BSN and take a peek this week (rhymed that like a rap star boss baby!).

 

The only other thing that initially catches my eye in the proposals...the action figures as references (I can't make out much from the Titanium figure) have a different holster than what we currently use altogether. They have straps around the entire exterior of the boot. This leads me to what Steve mentioned in a separate thread about "perfect world" diverging CRLs. Do these fit within the CRL that was created off the previous references or no? Thoughts?

 

Definitely interested in your feedback as well as some of the other CRL writers and our fellow scouts.

[izzi[TX]]

Though things may have changed, as I understood it, Hasbro figures are not usable for paint and detailing options. The reason being that Hasbro used to be able to change colors or add small changes without LFL approval in order to sell more copies of the same figure. At one time Shadow Stormtroopers were allowed blue tube stripes on the helmet due to Hasbro toys, but that was removed by the LMO due to the references being 3 3/4" figures at the time. This is something that will probably need to be researched further.

[762s[TX]]

Thanks for doing some leg work here Ken. I'm sure Antje and Steve will chime in...

 

Regarding paint sheens...I do not believe "matte" (which is more synonymous with "flat" correct?) is the sheen you're seeing troopers use. The majority of troopers are doing either gloss (typically from the original pull of their plastic) or satin...which is a closer cousin to semi-gloss. I remember this being a distinct question during my build and Chef clarifying the paint sheens with me. Matte was never mentioned in those convos...only satin, semi-gloss, or gloss.

 

I'd be interested to see the "why" behind some of the TB adjustments (mostly so I can learn lol) particularly regarding strapping measures for level 2 and required measures being added for velcro in spots for basic approval...most of those seem a copy/paste your suggesting here. I'ma hop over into the BSN and take a peek this week (rhymed that like a rap star boss baby!).

 

The only other thing that initially catches my eye in the proposals...the action figures as references (I can't make out much from the Titanium figure) have a different holster than what we currently use altogether. They have straps around the entire exterior of the boot. This leads me to what Steve mentioned in a separate thread about "perfect world" diverging CRLs. Do these fit within the CRL that was created off the previous references or no? Thoughts?

 

Definitely interested in your feedback as well as some of the other CRL writers and our fellow scouts.

 

 

hello,

 

as far as the sheen here are some posts from this board:

and i believe sating and matte are closer match to each other....either way ... the crl only has gloss or semi gloss and matte/satin are neither of those

 

http://forum.501stsp...ch__1#entry3893

just a boot holster in flat black ...

"I switched from the shinny vinyl to a dull black vinyl and it seamed to work better plus the boots looked better to me. I aslo painted my holster flat black to match my boots."

 

 

http://forum.501stsp...h__1#entry40509

this is from chef

Everyone here in the UK uses Satin because it looks meaner.

But there are quite a few 'unpainted' ones out there, so naturally they look gloss.

 

Might be worth having a word with your GML to see if there are any others locally, and fall into line with them. If you're the first, I would suggest you go with Satin."

 

----

 

"For the finish ike the other said, go with what you like. I went Satin for the armor and Gloss on the greebies"

 

 

most People use gloss or satin.

 

 

http://forum.501stsp...h__1#entry69305

 

As Sall and Reto said already said full black decals but dark grey is also acceptable due to CRL's.

Armor and helmet can be either glossy or matte satin finished

 

 

http://forum.501stsp...page__hl__matte

chef again..

I'm a satin man too...

 

 

http://forum.501stsp...h__1#entry50506

chef yet again

Using a satin or matte finish to the armour, accentuated with gloss highlights and detailing, helps create depth in the armour.

 

----

 

I also painted the first piece of armor satin black. I sanded off the wrnkle, and glued behind it to make sure it doesnt split. I sanded the entore piece with 60grit, then 100, then 220 then 400. Then i primed it. Hit it with 0000 steel wool, primed again and then shot 2 coats of fusion satin black

 

 

http://forum.501stsp...h__1#entry40509

I didnt like the "Satin" finish the fusion ends up with. it was more of a semi gloss so I hit it with a matte clear coat which took the luster I went Satin for the armor and Gloss on the greebies.

 

 

http://forum.501stsp...__fromsearch__1

guess who ?

Go for a satin based colour, and use gloss detailing

 

 

 

and well, i can keep going with that, there is more .. even furiosa(antje) armor is not semigloss or gloss.

 

and i will add the satin sheen to mix above ... there is a BIG difference from semigloss to satin/matte, satin matte is closer to flat than semigloss, if you want close to be close to semigloss then youll need to go plain satin, not satin matte

 

 

 

 

 

strapping ...

 

now, as far as the strapping. there are no real/true references to pull from for the shadow scout. so, why not keep them updated with the tb.

 

now for a real concern with the strapping ...

 

let say i have more screen accurate armor ... not like sc wich is just a smooth area 3" wide

 

shadow scout crl states 50mm or 2" black webbing

 

there is no way im getting 2" strapping into my chest/back armor

 

 

and heres my sc with 1 1/2" strapping ...

if i where to go 2" that would only leave a 1/2" of armor left on the top and bottom and weakening the armor in this area significantly

 

so, the strapping with the shadow scout really needs to adjusting.

 

 

 

the boot holster ...

 

the boot holster is the same for the biker scout, that action figure shows the 2 straps as well. so, this is where we get some differences between what we see and what we know. we see the figures with strapping on the holster but, we know from the movie(rotj) with the the biker scout it is not the case, it is riveted onto the boot. this brings me back to why the strapping doesnt follow the biker scout ...

 

we know how the biker scout strapping/holster is but, we dont use that knowledge for a the shadow scout. ?

 

 

 

action figure references ...

 

well, im not sure how the crl came about if it we cant use action figures !?

 

i read the old board and our current board with research and action figures are being used as references.

 

old board -- research thread -- posting the link doesnt work .. how about this ... http://w11.zetaboard...opic/7272696/1/

new board -- research thread -- http://forum.specops501st.com/index.php?/topic/12-shadow-scout-reference-pics/

 

 

 

now, lets throw a wrench into this whole crl ... thanks izzi for updating the reference photos.

 

if we use the reference photos izzi shows we need to have a change for the following:

 

~ a square in the center of the rear helmet (pic 1)

~ ribs and piping to the gauntlet area of the gloves (pic 1)

~ remove the vents on the right side of the rear of the helmet and add a barcode that matches the left side, square indent is in the center of the barcodes (pic 1)

~ remove suede from the gloves fingers (pic 2)

~ the boot have a flap that is turned down on the top (pic 2)

~ there is an extra set of thigh strapping (seen on trooper falling in pic 2)

~ horizontal vents in the ears (pic 2)

~ gray detail on the closeup shot of the scout but, the other pictures are just black (pic 2) --- we dont see this detail normally as its just artistic liberties being taken to give the feel of "black" scout

~ shoulder bells/armor have a raised vertical line in them (pic 3)

~ a pair of red and green lights on 2 boxes on the center of the belt (pic 3)

~ no soft part cod piece ... it looks more like a storm trooper or mandalorian hard armor cod piece (see 3)

 

 

 

 

im all for more references on this and more discussion

 

thanks troops for chiming in and i look forward to working on this with all who are involved!

[izzi[TX]]

There are more reference pics that need to be tracked down. Unfortunately, it seems we lost quite a few when places like photo bucket clamped down on 3rd party hosting. Those pics were the ones I had back when the forums were initially created.

I haven't been to active due to life happening the past few years, but I'm going to be more involved this year and would like to see the references put back in order before we start making changes to the CRL.

The CRL is a living document as is meant to reflect the current body of knowledge. So definitely keep up the discussion, and if you can help track down LFL artwork and descriptions, we can put this in order.

I will transfer the figures you posted as supporting references to the main pic thread though, so we can look for similarities in your analysis and any further posted figures and artwork in order to make informed changes.

[762s[TX]]

alright izzi ... can you give some info on these other pics? where they are from, games, cards, comics ect.ect.?

 

i look a the old zeta boards (i posted the link above) and it doesnt seem there are to many more pics than what we have now.

plus, my searches are coming up empty or are showing storm commandos

 

 

 

and heres some refrences of whats on zeta boards ... seems we have these ... is there more?

"Shadow Scouts

X-Wing Rouge Leader Vol 1-3 (izzi)

Storm Commando [misnamed Shadow Scout] & General Weir 2 Pack (izzi)"

 

 

 

as well from the zeta boards crl ...

seems weathering was acceptable at one time .. i like this aspect

 

~ "** COLOR: Helmet must be black: gloss or semi-gloss and may be weathered. No gray highlighting is acceptable unless otherwise noted."

~ "* COLOR: All hard armor may be black gloss or semi-gloss and may be weathered."

[RAIDER[COTG]]

alright izzi ... can you give some info on these other pics? where they are from, games, cards, comics ect.ect.?

 

i look a the old zeta boards (i posted the link above) and it doesnt seem there are to many more pics than what we have now.

plus, my searches are coming up empty or are showing storm commandos

 

 

 

and heres some refrences of whats on zeta boards ... seems we have these ... is there more?

"Shadow Scouts

X-Wing Rouge Leader Vol 1-3 (izzi)

Storm Commando [misnamed Shadow Scout] & General Weir 2 Pack (izzi)"

 

 

 

as well from the zeta boards crl ...

seems weathering was acceptable at one time .. i like this aspect

 

~ "** COLOR: Helmet must be black: gloss or semi-gloss and may be weathered. No gray highlighting is acceptable unless otherwise noted."

~ "* COLOR: All hard armor may be black gloss or semi-gloss and may be weathered."

 

There should be some more (though prob not too many more...my favorite is Darth Vader #17 cover by Kaare Andrews...who confirmed to me it's a Shadow Scout and not a silhouette lol...official Disney canon canon canon???). Iz will get em updated fa sho.

 

Just an update here on my end...I did reach out to Chef as the pinned Specialist requirements he worked on (in 2015) here in our forums...

 

http://forum.501stsp...t-requirements/ )

 

...don't align w/ what's on the 501st hosted CRL completely (not counting the most recent Lancer TB updates). So that's something to look into as well. This actually applies to the Swamp Scout Specialist CRL as well (which is actually split into diverging "realistic" vs. "artistic" paths) here...

 

http://forum.501stsp...t-requirements/

 

So I've been hunting info on why the discrepancies. Maybe we can consider doing a similar split on our Shadow Specialists? Or maybe that was already in the works w/ the Storm Commando in the unapproved CRL section? So I haven't been ignoring this discussion...just reading and gathering info.

 

Only last bit of input from Chef I gleaned...in the quotes you found referencing satin vs. matte by him...it seemed to me that nearly all mentioned satin...none used the term semi-gloss...and only one used satin/matte combo. Satin does have a sheen to it (making it a closer cousin to semi-gloss)...that's a pretty standard paint progression. Matte has no sheen...can be interchanged w/ flat. With permission to quote him, I asked Chef what his original thoughts were...basically said that he is using the term "satin" interchangeably w/ "semi-gloss". Hope that clears up some of the semantics there and why satin isn't in the CRL as of yet but it's mentioned so much here (by him)...it's being used synonymously with semi-gloss. If separating the 2 in specific wording is necessary, I'm up for it. That said...once you go below satin/semi-gloss, you are in the realm of "no sheen" which I guess is a separate discussion (and will prob go back to whatever precedent is in place regarding use of action figs which is where the alternate paint jobs are coming from).

 

We will work through it no doubt. Let's keep plugging away

[762s[TX]]

There should be some more (though prob not too many more...my favorite is Darth Vader #17 cover by Kaare Andrews...who confirmed to me it's a Shadow Scout and not a silhouette lol...official Disney canon canon canon???). Iz will get em updated fa sho.

 

Just an update here on my end...I did reach out to Chef as the pinned Specialist requirements he worked on (in 2015) here in our forums...

 

http://forum.501stsp...t-requirements/ )

 

...don't align w/ what's on the 501st hosted CRL completely (not counting the most recent Lancer TB updates). So that's something to look into as well. This actually applies to the Swamp Scout Specialist CRL as well (which is actually split into diverging "realistic" vs. "artistic" paths) here...

 

http://forum.501stsp...t-requirements/

 

So I've been hunting info on why the discrepancies. Maybe we can consider doing a similar split on our Shadow Specialists? Or maybe that was already in the works w/ the Storm Commando in the unapproved CRL section? So I haven't been ignoring this discussion...just reading and gathering info.

 

Only last bit of input from Chef I gleaned...in the quotes you found referencing satin vs. matte by him...it seemed to me that nearly all mentioned satin...none used the term semi-gloss...and only one used satin/matte combo. Satin does have a sheen to it (making it a closer cousin to semi-gloss)...that's a pretty standard paint progression. Matte has no sheen...can be interchanged w/ flat. With permission to quote him, I asked Chef what his original thoughts were...basically said that he is using the term "satin" interchangeably w/ "semi-gloss". Hope that clears up some of the semantics there and why satin isn't in the CRL as of yet but it's mentioned so much here (by him)...it's being used synonymously with semi-gloss. If separating the 2 in specific wording is necessary, I'm up for it. That said...once you go below satin/semi-gloss, you are in the realm of "no sheen" which I guess is a separate discussion (and will prob go back to whatever precedent is in place regarding use of action figs which is where the alternate paint jobs are coming from).

 

We will work through it no doubt. Let's keep plugging away

 

 

thanks for your update and the info.

 

i would love to see a split crl for this costume!

with the references we have already it only makes sense to have a 2 part crl. no need to single one costume out or just go all black, right?

 

 

and with the paint ...

i believe we should have any variations we are able to use listed. maybe, this could be done within the 2 part crl ?

 

as for my first costume submission(shadow scout) i was not sure how strict my gml was ..

i had first sprayed everything matte on my armor and decided to go with semi-gloss due to what the crl said and not what i was reading around here.

but, after seeing how close the semigloss was to the matte i used i was upset that i spent the time and money to respray everything!

 

so, i can not agree that matte has no sheen ... technically speaking it should not have a sheen.

but, i know for a fact the matte i used had a slight sheen to it ... it had more of a satin finish than a flat finish.

so, i think it has more to do with different manufacturers paint having a different sheen to them!

 

 

 

 

and for your addition to the reference pictures ... i found the cover you mentioned and threw it in photoshop ... not much detail though when the image is made larger plus, its a drawing/painting ..

although its a good reference for the e11 blaster

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

thanks for your update and the info.

 

i would love to see a split crl for this costume!

with the references we have already it only makes sense to have a 2 part crl. no need to single one costume out or just go all black, right?

 

 

and with the paint ...

i believe we should have any variations we are able to use listed. maybe, this could be done within the 2 part crl ?

 

as for my first costume submission(shadow scout) i was not sure how strict my gml was ..

i had first sprayed everything matte on my armor and decided to go with semi-gloss due to what the crl said and not what i was reading around here.

but, after seeing how close the semigloss was to the matte i used i was upset that i spent the time and money to respray everything!

 

so, i can not agree that matte has no sheen ... technically speaking it should not have a sheen.

but, i know for a fact the matte i used had a slight sheen to it ... it had more of a satin finish than a flat finish.

so, i think it has more to do with different manufacturers paint having a different sheen to them!

 

 

 

 

and for your addition to the reference pictures ... i found the cover you mentioned and threw it in photoshop ... not much detail though when the image is made larger plus, its a drawing/painting ..

although its a good reference for the e11 blaster

 

 

Nice cut man! When I got this issue in the mail, I nearly wet myself...we made it onto an official piece of Disney work lol!!! Not a full-360...it is artwork...but it shows the resemblance to a TB more than some of the older references...plus this one gets the Disney-approved stamp I'm going to stalk more Marvel employees and see what they can do to squeeze us in more issues lol.

 

Yea paint def differs by brand...I'm simply referring to the standard broad definition which as you said would be matte being flat (no sheen). I mostly brought that up to clarify that the term "satin" is/was being used as if it they are the one and the same as "semi-gloss" (technically they're not but they're daggum close...pardon my southern). The intent in Chef's forum convos wasn't meant to sneak in a different color basically. The CRL reads semi-gloss...peeps (he) understand that to be satin. Still..to avoid confusion, adding the vocab isn't a bad idea.

 

I'm going to keep reading up in the next week or 2 and will pop in when anything interesting arises.

[izzi[TX]]

Just wanted to touch base. This thread isn't being ignored. We're in a transition from last year's staff, into the upcoming staff, so permissions are being granted, goals for the year are being set, and responsibilities are being delegated.

 

You'll probably notice more artwork has been getting posted as I find it, as I'll still actively working on regaining our lost sources. I believe I also need to revisit some of the old threads, for the reasons why some choices were made on the CRL.

I wouldn't suggest visiting the old zetaboards for information, as the CRLs there were highly inaccurate when compared to source material and were originally written around what troopers wanted to do with their armor, and not by keeping in line with the available visual references and other sources. Items that were removed from those past CRLs were removed to align the costume to Legion expectations.

 

When the staff gets settled and I'm able to verify if my memory from 8 year ago is correct concerning this costume, we'll address this fully.

 

-iz

[762s[TX]]

i guess for me im so confused with how this costume even came to be like it is in the crl ...

 

i read here and there that 3 different references are needed/360 views ect.

 

but, looking at what is available the only constant similarity in this costume is the 3 action figures i posted.

all the art references are different from each other, like i pointed out above in post #4. and im sure you all can see the differences too, which there are alot differences in the art.

 

so, please explain how this works?

do we just say we like like that chest, helmet,knee from these certain pics and forget about the red lines and silver cog on the armor or even the back pack ...

oh hey .. those shoulder armors are neat, one has a circle and the other has a ridge on it... but, we wont do that!

 

i guess i was under the impression that a reference has to match across other references ... again, i dont see that with the art and only a few aspects match across the figures and the art.

and then we look at specialist requirements and it seems as though it is made from just the 1 all black action figure.

 

???

please, explain how does this reference/crl making/changing work?

[RAIDER[COTG]]

i guess for me im so confused with how this costume even came to be like it is in the crl ...

 

i read here and there that 3 different references are needed/360 views ect.

 

but, looking at what is available the only constant similarity in this costume is the 3 action figures i posted.

all the art references are different from each other, like i pointed out above in post #4. and im sure you all can see the differences too, which there are alot differences in the art.

 

so, please explain how this works?

do we just say we like like that chest, helmet,knee from these certain pics and forget about the red lines and silver cog on the armor or even the back pack ...

oh hey .. those shoulder armors are neat, one has a circle and the other has a ridge on it... but, we wont do that!

 

i guess i was under the impression that a reference has to match across other references ... again, i dont see that with the art and only a few aspects match across the figures and the art.

and then we look at specialist requirements and it seems as though it is made from just the 1 all black action figure.

 

???

please, explain how does this reference/crl making/changing work?

 

I, personally, am trying to work through that as well. I recently had my permission upgraded (muahahahaha) so I can read through some of the past discussions on both of our scout options to get the history of the decision making both here and at the Legion level. Here's some of what I THINK (don't quote this as gospel...this is me piecing together what I am learning)...as always, I don't want to put words into people's mouths nor trample on the hard work people before us did (RESPEK HOMIES!!! lol), so any of the members who were around and actually developed these CRLs can definitely correct me if I'm wrong on what I think I'm understanding:

 

1) Spec Ops is well over 10 years old. Lots of things have changed in that time. How things were done then may not be (are def not) how they are done now. Overall, it's a very flexible situation depending on current LMOs and their interpretation of precedents (similar to our US court system lol). So to ask, "How did this pass?" really isn't a question with a rigid, simple answer.

 

* For example, the 3 panel reference "rule" to my understanding has been held to tightly at some points in the Legion's existence and more loosely in others as technically it's not really a written rule but a suggestion for how an LMO should approach it. As LMOs change, the enforcing/interpretation of that changes.

 

2) Comic references, as they are drawings and artist interpretations, are not necessarily the rock solid reference we'd like them to be (again, how I'm reading things...don't quote this as truth). Due to this, there is some liberty to lean back to what we know for certain (those things that have appeared on-screen in film canon).

 

* For example...the General Weir/Shadow Scout 2-pack comic shows Shadow Scouts with some noticeable differences from the movie TBs we see on screen. But then the figures included in the very same pack mimic the TB more than they do the comic version. This is where the grey area comes in involving comic-based characters and allows for more flexible interpretation of them into a CRL...this may also explain some of why the current Shadow Scout config is all-black...the best comic reference for that character was presented alongside an all-black version action figure representation...but that fig rep was more TB than anything leading to a sensible blend of the 2.

 

3) This stems from that last example...since action figures can be made in really any paint format (for example look at all of the different TK action figures out there or Boba Fett figs...none match perfectly even in paint jobs...allowing every paint variation would be chaos)...so for paint schemes, the precedent seems to be that when it comes to paint applications, we have leaned to the main references for guidance. Since the main comic pack shows an all-black scout (with a black lens), that's prob why it ended up as the go-to...maybe silver was allowed because the figure that directly accompanied that pack has a silver-ish lens.

 

That's what I've gathered so far...at least to my understanding...and my understanding may change as I ask more questions and read more lol. That may not all line up with what we expect here in 2018...the Legion has progressed along way it seems since Albin Johnson first donned his TK lol...but there was def thought and a process followed (it wasn't just a random slap-it-together party)...the process evolves, devolves, etc. I think that's my biggest takeaway so far...esp. in regards to comic characters, there is no "set in stone 10 commandments of CRL writing"...just precedents that blend what we see with what makes sense.

 

Hope that helps a little as I am pretty much just thinking out loud here.

[762s[TX]]

that helps alot raider.

 

thanks for the info and insight of how this is put together.

 

look forward to working through this and seeing what we can up with for 2018

[RAIDER[COTG]]

that helps alot raider.

 

thanks for the info and insight of how this is put together.

 

look forward to working through this and seeing what we can up with for 2018

 

Yea man we will get it squared up. Appreciate the effort for sure! And again...that's all how I think I understand stuff...could be all wrong lol. There are a few more threads I want to go through for sure. I'm not a pro by any stretch when it comes CRLs or costume building...this one in particular draws my interest because...well...it's what I rock at nearly every troop I do.

[Dart[501st]]

Just thought I'd weigh in a bit here about the strapping around the boot for the holster.

 

Wayyyy back when, there was an image that was sent to the toy companies about how to depict the Scout. It was a pre-production shot that did have straps around the boot. Those straps were removed for the final version of the costume, but have never been removed from any Scout figure that's been made. So that's why you see the straps on every single right boot. What was mentioned before about the toy manufacturers having free reign over the colours they use is totally spot on. There was a 2 pack of "Snow Scouts" with grey undersuits and white armour. Most toys are not generally the best guides because of that.

 

Also, we've updated a few of the strapping measurements for the Scout CRL, making changes to the webbing widths of the shoulder bell (1/2"), bicep (2"), and underarm chest/back strapping (1.5"). If that's something that you fine folks decide to adopt, have at it. We made the changes due to how difficult it was to find some of the widths (1 3/8" elastic isn't easy for everyone to get) and just to get a better definition for future scouts.

 

This also interests me on a personal note as I'm planning on converting my old MC Scout to a Shadow Scout once I get me some new armour.

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Just thought I'd weigh in a bit here about the strapping around the boot for the holster.

 

Wayyyy back when, there was an image that was sent to the toy companies about how to depict the Scout. It was a pre-production shot that did have straps around the boot. Those straps were removed for the final version of the costume, but have never been removed from any Scout figure that's been made. So that's why you see the straps on every single right boot. What was mentioned before about the toy manufacturers having free reign over the colours they use is totally spot on. There was a 2 pack of "Snow Scouts" with grey undersuits and white armour. Most toys are not generally the best guides because of that.

 

Also, we've updated a few of the strapping measurements for the Scout CRL, making changes to the webbing widths of the shoulder bell (1/2"), bicep (2"), and underarm chest/back strapping (1.5"). If that's something that you fine folks decide to adopt, have at it. We made the changes due to how difficult it was to find some of the widths (1 3/8" elastic isn't easy for everyone to get) and just to get a better definition for future scouts.

 

This also interests me on a personal note as I'm planning on converting my old MC Scout to a Shadow Scout once I get me some new armour.

 

Thanks for the feedback Andry! I was in a back and forth info gathering session w/ Chef not to long ago on the strapping and other adjustments made to the TB crl. We are taking all the input and putting the official proposal adjustment together to present shortly (starting with Swamp Scouts and then working through the others). I appreciate the background info on the strapping decisions. That's an added layer of info I had not gotten from Chef.

[izzi[TX]]

Just to give you an update: We're currently working on updatin the CRL for the Swamp Trooper then we'll be addressing the Shadow Scout. Give us a couple weeks.

[762s[TX]]

sounds good izzi ... look forward to seeing what we can do to bring more options/changes to the scout here

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Final write up being done and then presenting very very soon for the Swampy.

 

Shadow and Weir will be quick too follow as most of what we think we can update will be similar.

[Harbinger33[501st]]

Will these updates bring these back in alignment with TB/Lancer requirements?

[RAIDER[COTG]]

By and large yes. Mirrored lenses are already allowed per the CRL for shadow scouts

 

 

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