New CRL Proposal: Imperial Army Officer (Various Sources)

[wrendevu[501st]]

9 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

The key thing is, read what were discussing, compare it to the images, and see if we missed something, or that what we wrote made sense or if we need to change the wording. Never be intimidated to let us know if we miss something!   We will take the discussion topic by topic and cover the whole thing head to toe.  In all, this looks very straightforward and Im looking forward to getting this completed. 

 

well add the gunbelt to the discussion once we work our way down to the Officer belt section.  

Sorry! I was referring to the verbiage of the antenna clip etc.  

Doing a bit of googling I found this:

Would this be the Rangefinder main detail?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Thats pretty much what ATST drivers use on their helmets. I found a printed file as well.  

 

Theres quire a few STL files out there from various sources.  

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Its been a few days, is there any further discussion on the helmet, in particular

The circular rangefinder ring

the five clips around the helmet

the round screw covers around the helmet rim

Id like to get this nailed down before we move on.

Proposal from above

Helmet

• Open face helmet consisting of a dome (with rim) and helmet skirt.
• Helmet is identical to the AT-AT Commander helmet.
• The helmet is painted a Gray color.
• A "Rangefinder" is attached to the helmet dome. This is centered to the right side of the dome and aligned to the rim.
  • The rangefinder consists of :
  • Rectangular box about h/l/d 1.85" (47mm), 1.65" (42mm), 0.4" (10.16mm) with a slight bevel and details on. The box is the same color as the helmet.
  • 1 screw cap or cylindrical knob approx. 0.4" (10.16mm) in diameter in the upper left corner.
  • 2 cylindrical pins lined up in the lower left corner of the box.
  • 1 cylindrical pin in the upper right corner of the box.
  • 1 Rangefinder main detail (originally created from a Revell V8 carburetor, but not to be confused with the "Han Solo blaster" piece), aligned at the lower right corner of the box.
  • Ring shaped antenna on top of the box with about 1.5" (38.1mm) in diameter and 0.35" (9mm) depth being cut at the top.
• There are 5 flat rectangular clips  are may be, positioned equally around the helmet where the dome meets the skirt. (1 in the center, 2 on each side).
• Imperial Code Disks are positioned on both sides of the helmet skirt.
• There are 6 screw cover greeblies may be positioned equally around the bottom of the helmet skirt (3 on each side).

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Yea looks good.  I was going to mention the comm mic...but that's in the optional, so we're good so far as I can see.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

ive had thoughts, which can be dangerous. 

In discussion it has been agreed that this is basically Veers at an earlier stage of his career before we see him in ESB.  

its been agreed that the armor is the same.  I have areas struck out in red based on what I can NOT see which is the antenna, the screw caps and the clips around the top of the skirt.

 

23 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

• • Ring shaped antenna on top of the box with about 1.5" (38.1mm) in diameter and 0.35" (9mm) depth being cut at the top.
• ]There are 5 flat rectangular clips may be, positioned equally around the helmet where the dome meets the skirt. (1 in the center, 2 on each side).
• Imperial Code Disks are positioned on both sides of the helmet skirt.
• There are 6 screw cover greeblies may be positioned equally around the bottom of the helmet skirt (3 on each side).

 

I added that the clips and the screw covers MAY BE added.  But what will our position be about the rangefinder? i dont even see it in any of the imperial officer tunic and pants versions that were submitted. 

Would the clips and the screw covers become a l2 variant? 

[wrendevu[501st]]

 

  I think everyone can agree with the control proposed. I personally don't think the rangefinder has a silver ring on it like General Veers in RSB is there because there isn't any evidence to prove it is there. 

Some evidence to prove this:

Thrawn in Rebels does not have it.

Governor Price does not have it on her helmet.

Tarken doesn't have it.

Of course Rebels in highly stylized, but the rangefinder is a defining feature of the helmet.  If the silver ring isn’t present in the art work, then it’s not there. It makes sense for them to no animate tiny details we look for such as clips and caps.

The silver ring on the rangefinder is only present in cavalry officers. I propose that we don't need that part rangefinder.

[wrendevu[501st]]

Also:

In the Solo movie, the ground units Han is apart of before he defects wears similar helmets. I have not found evidence of any silver rings on top the rangefinders.

And there is another crl in development shows a similar helmet that only has one reference for the silver ring on top the rangefinder.

 

[wrendevu[501st]]

Edit. I misunderstood what consisted the rangefinder. When I was referring to it, i meant the silver ring part but I do believe the greebie part is present.

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Wren you've made a convincing argument against the rangefinder antenna ring.  While I CAN see the part you originally posted, none of the views presented here have the circular antenna.   

 

History lesson: on old airplane photos youll see a circular antenna pointing up usually halfway back. That coupled with a static belly mounted antenna create a homing system to home in on radio signals.  Wkrks great and a similar version is still in use today...the Audio Direction Finder  System. 

[izzi[TX]]

Hopping in here: First thing to point out, both Rebels and Solo costumes really can't be used to support the removal of the antenna ring. Solo is a different unit all together and though it looks similar, from working on the CRL the differences are actually pretty vast from the later rebellion era costumes.  Rebels, on the other hand, though it is stylized being one reason, you also have to look at the rank bars. All those wearing the bar are higher ranking officers and are there to oversee, not to be giving commands in the field. This would explain why they don't have mics, antenna, etc.

Sometimes you have to go back to the source material that inspired the artwork as well:

 

We can all agree that it is modeled after General Veers's armor in ESB with a few artistic changes. This view of veers is also pretty much the same angle as the characters in the reference material. If you were to look at this you see the bottom of the rangefinder, but you do not have the "ring" in view. However, we do know that it's there. Since one of the referencess is a younger Veers, and the armor has all the distinguishing features of this same armor, it has been concluded and agreed upon by the LMOs working with Spec Ops, that the unseen armor details in these references would match the ESB Veers armor.

-iz 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

well, ok then, there is our answer. 

So, the armor and helmet will be a duplicate except in color of the ESB Veers armor, as detailed in the AT AT Ground Commander:

https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:TA_AT-AT_Commander

i had a discussion today about the rank insignia.  We have three references which are different ranks.    I would propose that we choose one of the three ranks seen in the art, which will simplify things greatly, or simply use the rank of "General", which is the four red and four blue tiles seen on both Veers armor and his ID uniform.  We can cover that in detail. 

 

With the LMO input, Im going to fix the helmet section back to the way it orginally was, as copied from the AT AT ground commander. 

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Moving on to the next section:

Goggles

• Black trimmed military style goggles, with a Light Gray/Tan or Black strap.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Goggles are angular, and not rounded in shape.
• Strap is black, and approx 1.5cm in width, with a small buckle on both sides.

The goggles used for the ATAT Commander should be the same as we see here.  You can clearly see UVEX in the CRL photo, and these look like Uvex saftey goggles. 

CRL photo from the ATAT Commander

and the Uvex safety anti fog goggle.  this is Uvex part number   11250810 

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/04498929?cid=ppc-google-New+-+Safety+-+PLA_sQuL1uGuI___164110844835_c_S&mkwid=sQuL1uGuI|dc&pcrid=164110844835&rd=k&product_id=04498929&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjbveBRDVARIsAKxH7vkOEVmxkPNcOSgz93k5G4rIHE7D07P71bJ7AV24Ut1GTeS9NfwXSwkaAkgCEALw_wcB

This is well defined for what it is, and these goggles are about ten dollars on the 'bay.  Clearly, the lens needs to be tinted for our use.  The goggles can be painted with vinyl paint. 

 

 

[Krysis[501st]]

found these https://www.ebay.com/itm/Uvex-Double-Lens-Supravision-super-anti-fog-Snowboard-Ski-Goggles-with-free-sack/153231235434?hash=item23ad4b196a:g:uCAAAOSwmLZb0MkE:rk:23:pf:0&autorefresh=true

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I bought these for comparison. Uvex Futura safety goggle.  I am convinced it is what we see in the At At commander CRL.

https://www.m.ebay.com/orderDetails?_trksid=p2501496.m2548.l2673&itemId=223153850382&txnId=2154704550012

[izzi[TX]]

On 10/23/2018 at 6:40 PM, Blackwatch said:

i had a discussion today about the rank insignia.  We have three references which are different ranks.    I would propose that we choose one of the three ranks seen in the art, which will simplify things greatly, or simply use the rank of "General", which is the four red and four blue tiles seen on both Veers armor and his ID uniform.  We can cover that in detail.

If we go back to the source material, The rank of General (4 red/4 blue) and Commander (3 red/3 blue) are both established ranks in the universe. However, I'm having a hard time finding additional references for the 5 red/5 blue so I believe that one may have been an oversight. So unless we can find additional sources the 5R/5B should probably be dropped.

However, Spec Ops loves it's options, and many officer uniforms have rank options available as well, so I believe we should leave both the established General and Commander ranks in the CRL and let people choose.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Since this is a ground Commander I think the rank of anything above Colonel are the Imperial equivalent of a colonel would be effective and allowable. Currently working on my goggles they came in Friday and I am upgrading the entire goggle to appear more like that in the ATAT  ground commander with a tan strap option. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Krysis found goggles with black frames and shade 5 green lenses.  

Uvex Ultra Vision.  Google fu will serve you well.    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=uvex+ultravision&_sop=7

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

It seems there is no further input on the goggles at this time.  I think that with the various Uvex brands we have ordered and received, we can post photos for reference and discussion.  I also got a couple of pairs of Lancer tacticals that have black frames and shade 5 shields. 

 

SO, let us turn our attention to the coveralls. This is a major departure from other officers, both in color and construction.  I am not sure that there is anything else like it in the 501st.

Tan Imperial Army Jumpsuit

• One piece tan coverall / jumpsuit / flightsuit with a hidden front zipper and standing collar.
• The standing collar has square corners.
• Collar closes snugly and includes a modesty panel behind closure.
• Chest pockets may be present if completely hidden by armor.
• 2 large cargo pockets sit on the outside of the legs from around mid-thigh and not extending past top of the knee, with a rectangular or chevron flap covering the top.
• Sleeves are bare without pockets or patches
• No pockets on, or below the knees.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Jumpsuit chest has a right panel that extends from the side seam to 3" past the center point.
• The panel closes with a loop and button closure at the bottom about 2" above the waist.

I would like to point out a change that should be made here:

Jumpsuit chest has a right panel that extends from the side seam to 3" past the center point.

this should read that the jumpsuit chest has a LEFT panel that extends from the side seam.  It overlaps from the left, crossing the zipper and buttons on wearer's right.   

I have my made this modification to mine, along with all other mods above. Overall, this all cotton suit is EXTREMELY comfortable, and the majority of my 501st uniforms are coverall based.   I know @wrendevu is working on hers as well.  Can you post your coverall photo so we can compare? 

 

[wrendevu[501st]]

I haven’t done much to mine but here’s a picture of my boots (along with my cat)

 

i have have my goggles also I will make a better post once I get better pictures

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

The tan color on these suits really stands out. Thanks for posting.

Overallthis was a VERY easy conversion. The officer collar took some figuring out.  

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

With no further discussion on the suit,  lets move our attention to the gloves .

Gauntlet Gloves

• Black, leather or leather-like, enclosed fingered, non-textured fitted gauntlet style.
• No buckles, straps, or decorative stitching.
• Three straight lines, on the back of the hand, are an option

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Back of hand is smooth without any decorative stitching whatsoever.

   Several have been identified that would seem to work:
Darkwood Armory super soft calfskin glove 

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_10&products_id=99

Darkwood Armory fighting weight glove

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_10&products_id=5

i have seen TIE pilots wear these. They have an expansion on one side (lower, outer) but are smooth on top. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MENS-BLACK-MEDIEVAL-RENAISSANCE-GAUNTLET-GLOVES-MADE-IN-USA-XL-/172081203316

11 years ago I started out with a pair of these Plain Leather Guantlets for my TI. They are good gloves, but on my arms a bit short in the cuff.    Smooth back, well made.  Make sure to order black, plain leather. 

http://www.leathermystics.com/gauntlets/gauntlets.html

Leather Mystics also has a Amazon sales site with a long arm cuff glove. 

https://www.amazon.com/stores/node/11734820011?_encoding=UTF8&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Leather Mystics&ref_=w_bl_hsx_s_sp_web_11734820011

 

Does anyone have others? input is welcome!

 

 

 

[wrendevu[501st]]

These are a pair of medium dark wood gloves I have. I was going to order a pair of black ones in a smaller size but posting this to show the basic shape.
Any options on this?


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[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Other than the color I like this glove. How does it look when you have your suit on, because that does change the shape of the gauntlet and it will not lie flat ilke it is now.  I just got my Leather Mystics long cuff glove from Amazon, and its much longer than the LM's I owned when I first joined. 

[wrendevu[501st]]

Other than the color I like this glove. How does it look when you have your suit on, because that does change the shape of the gauntlet and it will not lie flat ilke it is now.  I just got my Leather Mystics long cuff glove from Amazon, and its much longer than the LM's I owned when I first joined. 

I’ll try it on together next time I get the chance.

I do want to move on to discussing the shoulder strap. I know it was said that we would be referencing the general veers crl. That crl calls for ribbed shoulder straps. But looking at the three reference pictures in the thread, I do not see any ribs on the shoulder straps.

Thoughts?


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[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

We seem to be at a consensus regarding:

Helmet w/ Veers (Ground commander ) Style details 

Headset-while not discussed, great photos were previously posted and its agreed that this is the type to be used. 

Goggle options

Tan coverall conversion

Glove availability, and options which include L2 smooth back gloves. 

Additionally, I see some things I need to fix in the proposed CRL text.  

 

With that said, and Wren's input, the next item will be the armor. 

We know this is Veer's armor from earlier in his carreer with backplate details that should mimic those seen in ESB and on the Ground commander CRL. 

Here is the proposal as worded on the front page.  Please review it carefully. 

Chest Armor

Note : All references of Right & Left are from the wearers point-of-view.

• Chest Armor is painted to match the Helmet.
• There are (2) red square greeblies on the right of the center depression.
• There are (2) white squares on the left side.
• There are two buttons at the bottom of the center depression. Blue on the right, and red or dark grey on the wearer's left.
• There are various designs within the center depression.
• May be accomplished with decals.
• Right side of the chest plate may have a silver greeblie.
• Three knobs on the left side, just next-to the center depression: Red, Blue & White.
• Raised lines on left side are painted black.
• Smooth Shoulder bridges connect the Back and Chest Armor
• Straps are painted to match the helmet and armor.
• (3) small screw cover greeblies, in a triangular formation, at the front of each strap.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Grey webbing, approx 1.5cm in width, passing under the arm to connect the Chest and Back Armor.
• There is a silver popper on the webbing, approx 1" from the Back Armor.

 

OBSERVATION:

Paint colors match helmett--grey.

Chestbox greeblie layout & color.     3 art pieces compared to each other, and to original Veers photos. 

Straps  - we need to sort these differences  out. 

Webbing under arm.

Right side front greeblie

 

DISCUSSION:

While based on the ATAT commander / Veers, there are a few differences  :

grey color.  I would suggest that any group doing this match with the same shade of grey paint.  To me, primer grey is perfectly fine. Flat to satin finish , no gloss.  

The various designs listed in the proposal, and as represented by the three pieces of art, match what we know about Veers/ Ground Commander armor, with different colors called out.  The only differences in the chestbox depression greeblie  layout I see is that one of the bottom squares may be dark grey, or red, and this is backed up by the art, and partly supported by the ATAT Ground commander CRL which has a grey button.  The color differences are minor.  

Wren brings up the straps, which are represented as smooth in each of the three pieces of art by three different artists, however in each film and behind the scenes photo we clearly see the ribbed straps seen on Snowtroopers.  See reference photos below. Also note that now we see the origin of the button, since we will not have the belly armor panel to hide it.   

Another observation is the 1.5CM grey webbing holding the armor together.  Shouldn't this be 1.5 INCH, which is clearly what this is when seen on the left side? 

This type of footman loop is used on snowtroopers, it could be  mounted to hold the strap. 

https://www.strapworks.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PFL&gclid=Cj0KCQiAi57gBRDqARIsABhDSMpRVxQqzYsLHVCKQvSWF-OPwD0It3Nhg8UHYNDZNvpNid6baAotIdMaAvPLEALw_wcB

AND, yet another observation, which may be me just looking at these photos too much, but in the art of Veers there is clearly a structural greeblie (circled in red). The photos show something that may be the same hemispheres from the opposite side , placed on the raised detail on the wearers right side. These are both casting shadows, and reflecting light.  Young Veers art shows a structural greeblie, male ground commander shows 

 

note that there are neither goggles nor a mic visible here.