Finalizing CRL Proposal - Lieutenant Janek Sunber (SW:E)

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

I love how this discussion is just moving along!

Tri-Glides

I hadn't thought about the "no tri-glides are present", and just realized that Sunber indeed doesn't have any tri-glides in the comics. Gotta go and remove mine and resize the harness.

Though come to think of it, if the tri-glides are not visible, would that be ok for level 2 as well? I am just thinking about the logistics of folks who might want to go from IAT and take on Sunber as a project, and use as much reusable part as possible. That and, generally if we can't see it, it shouldn't matter right?

I might end up just making a loop of the harness and pass the belt through - this helps get rid of both the need for the fastener and tri-glides I suppose! Will give it a try this week.

Comlink & Pouch

Similar to the exchange we had about the pockets under the patches, I do think that both the pouch and the comlink should be a requirement for Sunber even at level 1. Sunber had both of these items available on all the reference images and seems to be unique to his character. 

I have different feelings about the electrobinoculars (I think they should be optional), but we can talk about that when we get there ?

This is a pretty big decision ... any thoughts from @Blackwatchon this? I know he's looked at this extensively as well.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

With the lack of triglides, I feel we do not mention it.  its not supported in the art, and if its not present in the text, then it would not be judged as presented. 

on the commlink, I feel like we can treat it one of two ways and still allow for an L2. 

Version 1: Holder, no commlink  L1

Commlink

An imperial commlink may be present on the web harness, adjacent to the rank badge on the left suspender.  

The pouch is green in color matching the rest of the web gear, and is form fitted to hold a Imperial Commlink.

 

Version 2, with commlink

An imperial commlink is held inside of a commlink pouch, adjacent to the rank badge on the left suspender.  

The pouch is olive green in color matching the rest of the web gear, and is form fitted to hold a Imperial Commlink.

The commlilnk is a matching olive green color, with a raised band around its midsection featuring raised vertical bars with a black speaker area. 

 

Version 3, L2

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The commlilnk is a matching olive green color, is accurate to original source art, and has a black mesh speaker area.

 

Im getting loopy as I write this, so its not my best descrption, but it gives us an idea of which way to go for a possible L2. 

 

 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Good points from both you. I'll try and touch both here:

Tri-Glides

I think that we could allow the tri-glides on the front provided that they are hidden by the pouches. They would need to be removed for L2 as the art doesn't show the tri-glides at all. That should allow for those who are looking to reuse the harness to be able to do so, however, it would require the next level of accuracy and modification for L2.

Comlink

I have weighed the options that were presented above and feel that we should include it under L1 with the applicable details for the comlink that is mentioned under Version 2 that @Blackwatch mentioned above seems the best suited for the text. I do feel that we should make reference to the Comlink in the Web Harness text and create a second section of the CRL for the Comlink itself to highlight the details as it is a required item.

Here is the new text with both points:

Web Harness

• Olive green colored, double strap "H" harness which travels from the lower back, and up over the shoulders.
• The harness system attaches to the belt.
• Harness is made of 2" (50mm) olive green nylon webbing.
• Visible snap-hook style fasteners that attach to belt eyelets are acceptable.
• Tri-glides may be present on front or back of suspenders.
• Back of suspenders may be permanently fastened to belt, but not required.
• Left suspender has a comlink clip/holster with a comlink contained within. The comlink clip/holster is positioned parallel to the rank bar and is form fitting to the comlink.
  • The comlink must meet the details contained within this CRL in its own section.
• Right suspender has a rectangular utility pouch attached with the bottom of the pouch positioned with the right chest pouch flap closure. The utility pouch is olive green in color and should be made of nylon or similar material. The pouch has a top flap, with a strap from top to bottom securing it shut.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Harness fasteners are not seen, and may be hidden behind the belt.
• Harness is fitted to the wearer and no tri-glides are present.

Comlink

• Styled after the comlink as seen in the Star Wars: Empire (Dark Horse Comics). An interpretation of the comlink is allowed, but comic accuracy is encouraged.
• The comlink is painted a matching olive green color and has the following details:
  • A raised band around its upper section featuring equally-spaced raised vertical bars with recessed areas between each vertical bar.
  • Underneath the upper section there is a recessed groove before the main body of the comlink.
  • The bottom of the comlink is beveled to a flat bottom.

I borrowed some text from our Rocket Trooper pack that allows for subtle interpretations, which helps GMLs out. When describing details this is the best shot of the comlink that we have:

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

Two more clarifications - 

Comlink: 

I don't know if this line under the comlink (for level 2) is necessary - "On the bottom of the comlink there is a black circular line." I have wondered if it's just a shadow and/or artifacts of a comic drawing. I think the description in level 1 is good enough?

Harness:
"Right suspender has a vanity pouch attached with the bottom of the pouch positioned with the right chest pouch flap closure." Are we going to be getting questions about what IS a vanity pouch? I am wondering if the verbiage should line up to the language we have for the pouches section. Perhaps the sentence could be updated to - 

Right suspender has a pouch attached with the bottom of the pouch positioned with the right chest pouch flap closure. The pouch is olive green in color and should be made of nylon or similar material. The pouch has a top flap, with a strap from top to bottom securing it shut. 

What do you think about suspending this part of the discussion and come back after we've had a conversation about the pouches? 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

23 minutes ago, Hoda said:

Two more clarifications - 

Comlink: 

I don't know if this line under the comlink (for level 2) is necessary - "On the bottom of the comlink there is a black circular line." I have wondered if it's just a shadow and/or artifacts of a comic drawing. I think the description in level 1 is good enough?

Harness:
"Right suspender has a vanity pouch attached with the bottom of the pouch positioned with the right chest pouch flap closure." Are we going to be getting questions about what IS a vanity pouch? I am wondering if the verbiage should line up to the language we have for the pouches section. Perhaps the sentence could be updated to - 

Right suspender has a pouch attached with the bottom of the pouch positioned with the right chest pouch flap closure. The pouch is olive green in color and should be made of nylon or similar material. The pouch has a top flap, with a strap from top to bottom securing it shut. 

What do you think about suspending this part of the discussion and come back after we've had a conversation about the pouches? 

I can address both of these:

Comlink:

It is definitely placed there as a level of detail. I'm honestly thinking that the intent is to show that that circular area is raised (think battery access panel), which is more or less why I think we should include it. It isn't anything crazy to whether it is raised or just a circular line. Keep in mind, L2 is for enhanced details, hyper-real when looking at screen stuff (e.g., not art, etc.). @Blackwatch @RAIDER what do you say?

I'm not opposed to removing it but just want to be sure we don't miss something.

Harness:

I have tried looking up pouch names from tac-vests online to see if where @Blackwatch derived that from and have had no luck. Maybe we say "rectangular utility pouch" as the specific pouch name? I really like the extra detail that you added into it as well as far as what it is made out of and the flap with strap text.

-------------------------

Thread Continuation:

As much as I'd like to push I'd really say let's nail down this text first and the rest should be pretty easy (minus the pouch part for the belt)  

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

22 minutes ago, IcyTrooper said:

Thread Continuation:

As much as I'd like to push I'd really say let's nail down this text first and the rest should be pretty easy (minus the pouch part for the belt)  

Hahahaha man, not looking forward to the pouch discussion.

I'm cool with whatever the pouch ended up being called, just being nit-picky again! The pouch description I included above was taken from the previous CRL discussion - I just lifted from the belt pouch description and dropped it in

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

N00b question, but is the commlink the cylindrical object located on the left strap across the chest?

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

8 hours ago, nanotek said:

N00b question, but is the commlink the cylindrical object located on the left strap across the chest?

Yup!

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

9 hours ago, nanotek said:

N00b question, but is the commlink the cylindrical object located on the left strap across the chest?

For a second I thought you were going Occam's razor for the description of the comlink ?

[RAIDER[COTG]]

To me that look like a raised circle not so much a line or cut-in circle

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

This looks like a strap to secure it to the shoulder strap maybe? Not part of the commlink?

 

 

 

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

That'd be my interpretation as well. For what it's worth, see below for the parts that Matt Nelson designed (I thought they were really close to the comics). 

I think the strap/band you are referring to is addressed in the harness section - "Left suspender has a comlink clip/holster with a comlink contained within. The comlink clip/holster is positioned parallel to the rank bar and is form fitting to the comlink."

It's a good call-out though. Maybe instead of calling it a "band" which could be confusing, maybe we update the language to something like the below?

I am not seeing the "black colored speaker area" or the "black circular line" in the reference images - is the black circular line supposed to go on the circled area I have shown below?

Comlink

• Styled after the comlink as seen in the Star Wars: Empire (Dark Horse Comics). An interpretation of the comlink is allowed, but comic accuracy is encouraged.
• The comlink is painted a matching olive green color and has the following details:
  • The upper section features prominently the raised vertical bars with a black colored speaker area.
  • Underneath the upper section there is a recessed groove before the main body of the comlink.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• On the bottom of the comlink there is a black circular line.

1 hour ago, nanotek said:

 

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

Ah yes, I would be remiss if I didn't bring up a really good point from the earlier CRL discussions back in 2018 when this first got kicked off, which is - 

Do we give the option of using the standard Imperial Style Comlink to be used as L1, and then require this olive green comlink as a L2 requirement? This would allow folks to build out a Sunber that's pretty close and then can go L2 if they would like to be more accurate.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

19 hours ago, RAIDER said:

To me that look like a raised circle not so much a line or cut-in circle

Yeah now that I'm looking back at it more I'm seeing that it is probably just an artistic detail so that it is shown that part is beveled outward.

5 hours ago, nanotek said:

This looks like a strap to secure it to the shoulder strap maybe? Not part of the commlink?

 

 

 

Yep! That is the comlink clip and holster. @Hoda nailed it with the text: Left suspender has a comlink clip/holster with a comlink contained within. The comlink clip/holster is positioned parallel to the rank bar and is form fitting to the comlink.

3 hours ago, Hoda said:

That'd be my interpretation as well. For what it's worth, see below for the parts that Matt Nelson designed (I thought they were really close to the comics). 

I think the strap/band you are referring to is addressed in the harness section - "Left suspender has a comlink clip/holster with a comlink contained within. The comlink clip/holster is positioned parallel to the rank bar and is form fitting to the comlink."

It's a good call-out though. Maybe instead of calling it a "band" which could be confusing, maybe we update the language to something like the below?

I am not seeing the "black colored speaker area" or the "black circular line" in the reference images - is the black circular line supposed to go on the circled area I have shown below?

Comlink

• Styled after the comlink as seen in the Star Wars: Empire (Dark Horse Comics). An interpretation of the comlink is allowed, but comic accuracy is encouraged.
• The comlink is painted a matching olive green color and has the following details:
  • The upper section features prominently the raised vertical bars with a black colored speaker area.
  • Underneath the upper section there is a recessed groove before the main body of the comlink.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• On the bottom of the comlink there is a black circular line.

 

The more I looked at the artwork I can see that when comparing that area we thought was black it is that lighter color that is present on various other parts of Sunber, which leads me to believe it is just shadowing or part of the art to accentuate the details:

  

 

With that being said, I took what you had said above and added a few more detail pieces in purple text to include details or descriptors that we may have missed previously. I removed L2 from this.

Comlink

• Styled after the comlink as seen in the Star Wars: Empire (Dark Horse Comics). An interpretation of the comlink is allowed, but comic accuracy is encouraged.
• The comlink is painted a matching olive green color and has the following details:
  • A raised band around its upper section featuring equally-spaced raised vertical bars with recessed areas between each vertical bar.
  • Underneath the upper section there is a recessed groove before the main body of the comlink.
  • The bottom of the comlink is beveled to a flat bottom.

Let me know what you think @RAIDER @nanotek @Blackwatch @Hoda

3 hours ago, Hoda said:

Ah yes, I would be remiss if I didn't bring up a really good point from the earlier CRL discussions back in 2018 when this first got kicked off, which is - 

Do we give the option of using the standard Imperial Style Comlink to be used as L1, and then require this olive green comlink as a L2 requirement? This would allow folks to build out a Sunber that's pretty close and then can go L2 if they would like to be more accurate.

I removed the L2 stuff for this as I don't think we have anything that would specifically warrant L2 for that. Personally, I'd say to just dump the L2 requirements for it and make the L1 stuff what is required. I checked over the comlink from the Stormtrooper ANH Hero for example, and it didn't match close enough to the reference images for Sunber to allow it for basic. I think it'd materially alter what we are trying to do  

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

I am good w the new text!

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I put the finalized text for the Web Harness and Comlink up on the first page in the finalized text section!

We can move to the belt text! Here is what I have:

Belt

• Belt is a nylon military style quick release web belt.
• Belt is olive green in color.
• Belt may feature eyelets along both sides of its length, but these are not required for approval.

OPTIONAL Level Two certification (if applicable):

• Belt buckle is olive green in color.

I did notice that the belt looks a little different from the quick release style buckle:

 

It looks like it goes through with a silver square buckle. I'd like to motion for this as a L2 detail.

Edited February 6, 2021 by IcyTrooper
Added motion for L2 detail on the square buckle, different belt setup.

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

Gah, dang it. You're right of course. 

What do you think of these belts? Looks close to the reference? Buckle based, 2 hole presence. I don't know that we need to call out the "silver" buckle ... or should we? I can never quite tell w the subtle color.

https://www.amazon.com/Unisex-Two-Hole-Canvas-Belt-Available/dp/B07D83S5KQ

https://www.amazon.com/Military-Double-Canvas-Army-Grommet/dp/B07F1DQQZ7

Now, I will say, it looks like at least one of the IATs wear the same belt as Sunber here (see the guy on the right), and we didn't have that called out in the IAT CRL. Maybe this is a L1 vs L2 difference?

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I was definitely thinking it should be a L2 thing and allow the standard IAT belt for L1 for sure!

Color wise for that silver part, it is definitely a toss up to me. In some panels it is olive green and then the others it is that silver color, but you never know if it is just off-colored to accentuate the details.

That second belt link from Amazon is nice! https://www.amazon.com/Military-Double-Canvas-Army-Grommet/dp/B07F1DQQZ7

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

Nice. I'd say leave the color of the buckle out of the text then - looking at the options, it's not like it'd get crazy anyway I don't think ...

HAHA OR I COULD BE WRONG.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

6 minutes ago, Hoda said:

Nice. I'd say leave the color of the buckle out of the text then - looking at the options, it's not like it'd get crazy anyway I don't think ...

HAHA OR I COULD BE WRONG.

Since we don't have a definitive color I think for L2 we could allow for either silver or olive-green. I'll just have to make sure to update the L1 text to allow for the quick-release square buckle or the double-prong belt. We'll definitely need the double-prong styled belt for L2 I'd say.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Let's try this updated belt text on for size:

Belt

• Belt is a nylon military style quick release web belt or a cotton double prong buckle web belt.
• Belt is olive green in color.
• Belt buckles may be the following colors:
  • Quick release style may be black or olive green.
  • Double prong style may be olive green or silver.
• Belt may feature eyelets along both sides of its length, but these are not required for approval.

OPTIONAL Level Two certification (if applicable):

• Belt is a nylon or cotton double prong buckle web belt and not the quick release style.
• Double prong buckle may be olive green or silver.

I was going to put text that I changed in purple and then realized that the entire thing was pretty much changed 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I have finalized the belt text, here is the belt pouches text:

Belt Pouches

• Belt pouches are olive green in color and should be made of nylon or similar material.
• 2 rectangular pouches with a top flap, and strap from top to bottom securing it shut, sit to the right of the belt buckle where the harness meets the belt.
• A gas-mask style pouch sits on the right of the above pouches.
• A tactical triple AK magazine PALS belt pouch should be on the rear of the belt.
• An electrobinoculars pouch sits on the left of the belt buckle where the harness meets the belt.
• 2 rectangular pouches with a top flap, and strap from top to bottom securing it shut, sit to the left of the electrobinoculars pouch.

OPTIONAL Level Two certification (if applicable):

• Electrobinoculars are present.

This was on the original proposal and I didn't see anything that looked out of place.

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

A few things (again, a bit nit-picky):

1. I just realized we haven't called out "MOLLE style" pouches similar to what we've done in the other Imperial Army CRLs. Should the text mention that? Something like:

• Belt pouches are olive green in color and should be made of nylon or similar material. Pouches are MOLLE style pouches. 

2. For the gas-mask style pouch, my recommendation is to make the text consistent with what we have for the Imperial Army Engineer (who has the same pouch but black). 

Something like this?

• A large pouch sits on the right of the above pouches. The pouch may be a utility pouch, gas mask pouch, SAW pouch, or other MOLLE style pouch of similar size.

And for L2

• The large pouch will make use of a visible double snap closure or appear to have such.

3. Do you think we should be consistent with describing the 4 (2+2) "rectangular pouches with a top flap", and keep it the same as the pouch on the harness? To me the pouches look to be the same. See below:

I know we were locking down texts as we move along, but seems as good a time to bring up as anything. Sorry!

My recommendation: we go back and remove the "utility" from the harness pouch. So the text for the harness pouch looks to be something like - 

"Right suspender has a rectangular pouch attached with the bottom of the pouch positioned with the right chest pouch flap closure. The pouch is olive green in color and should be made of nylon or similar material, with a top flap, and strap from top to bottom securing it shut

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Hey, thanks!

1. I do agree with the MOLLE styled pouches. I think we should make the text mention MOLLE style, so anytime pouch is mentioned we could put something like "2 rectangular MOLLE style pouches", etc., would that be better?
2. I do agree with changing that so that it matches the Engy. I also agree with the L2 detail.
3. I concur and will make the change on the finalized text section to remove "utility".

You'll see the applied changes below in the purple text.

Belt Pouches

• Belt pouches are olive green in color and should be made of nylon or similar material.
• 2 rectangular MOLLE style pouches with a top flap, and strap from top to bottom securing it shut, sit to the right of the belt buckle where the harness meets the belt.
• A large pouch sits on the right of the above pouches. The pouch may be a utility pouch, gas mask pouch, SAW pouch, or other MOLLE style pouch of similar size.
• A tactical triple AK magazine PALS belt or MOLLE style pouch should be on the rear of the belt.
• An electrobinoculars pouch sits on the left of the belt buckle where the harness meets the belt.
• 2 rectangular MOLLE style pouches with a top flap, and strap from top to bottom securing it shut, sit to the left of the electrobinoculars pouch.

OPTIONAL Level Two certification (if applicable):

• The large pouch will make use of a visible double snap closure or appear to have such.
• Electrobinoculars are present.

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

Love it!