Stand Up Collar or Folded Open Collar?

[andyman97[TX]]

I haven't seen this mentioned but wanted to ask if there is a plan to update the current CRL to allow for a fold-down open collar, similar to what the pathfinders did with the RoTJ Biker Scout.  Thanks!

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

Are there any sources of references for turned down collars on the Shadow Scout? I have not seen any.

[andyman97[TX]]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Are there any sources of references for turned down collars on the Shadow Scout? I have not seen any

I haven't seen any references that clearly show the shadow scout collar at all, let alone that support the way the crl is written currently. I scrubbed through all the references listed in the reference thread above but not one has a clear shot of the collar construction.

I'm looking at doing this build and I've been emailing with Rob from chef's creations for a soft parts commission.  He mentioned that he originally wrote the CRL and everything was based on the biker scout and all of his flight suits for the shadow have the turned down collar that is clear from the references of the biker scout. 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

11 hours ago, andyman97 said:

I haven't seen any references that clearly show the shadow scout collar at all, let alone that support the way the crl is written currently. I scrubbed through all the references listed in the reference thread above but not one has a clear shot of the collar construction.

I'm looking at doing this build and I've been emailing with Rob from chef's creations for a soft parts commission.  He mentioned that he originally wrote the CRL and everything was based on the biker scout and all of his flight suits for the shadow have the turned down collar that is clear from the references of the biker scout. 

Hey Andy

I was going to answer your PM but instead I will address it here with a disclaimer; we have not discussed this properly yet as a team.

To answer your question up front, there is no plan to update/align the CRL to the RotJ Biker Scout. 

The Shadow Scout is arguably problematic for a few reasons

• Naming of Shadow Scout - We have more references that point to the name Storm Commando than Shadow Scout. There is probably some historical discussion buried in the old Zeta boards about this. I have heard that even Storm Commando was introduced later and that the original was far different than what we have as our CRL.
• References do not support an open collar. 
• The current CRL does not match the game references in some instances.
• Aligning fully with the RotJ Scout for the sake of ease will cause drift from the actual references.

 It is certainly worthwhile of discussion and while we certainly try to align our CRLs where we can, I do not think it is as simple as saying "the Biker Scout CRL is X, therefore Shadow Scout = X too". I am more than happy to open a more full discussion about the subject and if we have enough evidence we can look at proposing changes to the CRL

@RAIDER@furiosa

[andyman97[TX]]

5 hours ago, nanotek said:

Hey Andy

I was going to answer your PM but instead I will address it here with a disclaimer; we have not discussed this properly yet as a team.

To answer your question up front, there is no plan to update/align the CRL to the RotJ Biker Scout. 

The Shadow Scout is arguably problematic for a few reasons

• Naming of Shadow Scout - We have more references that point to the name Storm Commando than Shadow Scout. There is probably some historical discussion buried in the old Zeta boards about this. I have heard that even Storm Commando was introduced later and that the original was far different than what we have as our CRL.
• References do not support an open collar. 
• The current CRL does not match the game references in some instances.
• Aligning fully with the RotJ Scout for the sake of ease will cause drift from the actual references.

 It is certainly worthwhile of discussion and while we certainly try to align our CRLs where we can, I do not think it is as simple as saying "the Biker Scout CRL is X, therefore Shadow Scout = X too". I am more than happy to open a more full discussion about the subject and if we have enough evidence we can look at proposing changes to the CRL

@RAIDER@furiosa

Thanks for the responses. I understand not changing the CRL just because it's technically not a biker scout and there aren't any references for a fold down collar. 

I still haven't found any references that support a stand up collar with a closure strap as written in the CRL, either, and I don't believe that should be overlooked.

Imo, if it's not clear that there is a collar at all then it might make more sense to modify the text to remove specific language for something that isn't verifiable in favor of having language that states the neck and head should be covered in black fabric or a balaclava instead. 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

On 10/2/2022 at 4:51 AM, andyman97 said:

Thanks for the responses. I understand not changing the CRL just because it's technically not a biker scout and there aren't any references for a fold down collar. 

I still haven't found any references that support a stand up collar with a closure strap as written in the CRL, either, and I don't believe that should be overlooked.

Imo, if it's not clear that there is a collar at all then it might make more sense to modify the text to remove specific language for something that isn't verifiable in favor of having language that states the neck and head should be covered in black fabric or a balaclava instead. 

The Shadow Scout (er Storm Commando) along w a few of our older CRLs created back when CRLs had much looser standards for getting created…coupled with changing staff (LMO and detachment) whose interpretation and/or enforcement of standards would (does) vary year to year.

All that to say…the Shadow Scout was initially created off of a compilation of various references from various sources none of which really come close to matching each other let alone a ROTJ scout.

Because of the varying sources, a literal approach (which seems more like what you’re suggesting or at least leaning) would require much more than addressing the collar…in actuality that would mean creating 3 or more separate CRLs or variations of the costume most of which would require specific customized armor parts.

Speaking directly to the collar, there is at least one reference (possibly more) that do indicate an upright closed collar. 

But as you can see, the armor is much different than a standard scout here.

At the last update, the team decided to maintain a “realistic” version of the costume which paralleled the ROTJ scout which started us down the path of narrowing the primary source to the SWG video game without totally trampling and upsetting all past Shadow Scouts…BUT it was definitely discussed as a topic about possibly adding variants to the CRL that mirrored the references independently…and then possibly renaming to Storm Commando…at some point in the future if we found willing builders.

Long post ugh sorry…so yea, references that are all over the place and limited, alot of precedent w/ the CRL already (for better or worse)…make this one a tricky CRL.

My personal take, emphasis this is just my personal opinion, I would love to see something like this happen:

-Rename to Storm Commando and create variants specific to each reference (vid game, comic, trading card) and make a final decision to either continue or cease alignment w/ ROTJ for a “realistic” version…since it already exists we cant just delete it.

[andyman97[TX]]

Thanks again for the thorough responses. 

I would argue that the reference doesn't strictly support the "stand up collar with closure strap".  IMO this equates to taking liberties with an interpretation (stating above that it is "indicated" is a perfect example).  I think it could more easily and accurately phrased as black fabric covering the costumer's neck without adding details that really can't be quantified.

However, there are steps the detachment can take to correct the CRL based on everything that's been mentioned above.  CRLs can certainly be retired, the steps to do so are in the DL survival guide.

https://databank.501st.com/databank/DLSurvivalGuide#SETTING_UP_THE_FORUMS

‘Grandfathering’ / Retiring CRLs
Occasionally, a pre-existing CRL may need to be retired from the published CRL list. This predominantly occurs with ‘older’ CRLs, that were created with limited references. Over the years, additional behind the scenes footage, photographs and resources have been made available that impact the accuracy of a CRL. This ultimately leads to a “current” CRL being inaccurate. The impact of this is costumes being approved that do not meet the standard the 501st Legion holds itself to. Detachment Leaders are encouraged to bring inaccuracies to the attention of Detachment Members and LMO. It is recommended that the following steps are followed:

Bring references to the LMO and Detachment to show why the CRL is no longer accurate.
Invite members to make and submit an accurate costume to be included in an updated CRL.
12 months from the date of notification to LMO and Detachment, the Detachment Leader may formally submit a request for the CRL to be retired.
LMO take all information provided, and vote on the retirement.
LMO & DL make an announcement about the outcome of the vote.
When a CRL is to be retired, any members who are working on the costume have 6 months from the date of retirement announcement, to complete their costume and receive approval before the costume is removed from the approvable roster.
Any members who have this costume approved already are ‘grandfathered’, and retain the costume on their individual 501st Legion profile. They are, however, to be encouraged to make the necessary changes to their costume to ensure their costume is accurate.
If the CRL is not retired, the Detachment Leader may submit another request in 12 months time.

Once a CRL has been retired, any costumer who wishes to make the costume must follow the ‘New to the Legion’ application process.

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

On 10/12/2022 at 10:41 PM, andyman97 said:

Thanks again for the thorough responses. 

I would argue that the reference doesn't strictly support the "stand up collar with closure strap".  IMO this equates to taking liberties with an interpretation (stating above that it is "indicated" is a perfect example).  I think it could more easily and accurately phrased as black fabric covering the costumer's neck without adding details that really can't be quantified.

However, there are steps the detachment can take to correct the CRL based on everything that's been mentioned above.  CRLs can certainly be retired, the steps to do so are in the DL survival guide.

https://databank.501st.com/databank/DLSurvivalGuide#SETTING_UP_THE_FORUMS

‘Grandfathering’ / Retiring CRLs
Occasionally, a pre-existing CRL may need to be retired from the published CRL list. This predominantly occurs with ‘older’ CRLs, that were created with limited references. Over the years, additional behind the scenes footage, photographs and resources have been made available that impact the accuracy of a CRL. This ultimately leads to a “current” CRL being inaccurate. The impact of this is costumes being approved that do not meet the standard the 501st Legion holds itself to. Detachment Leaders are encouraged to bring inaccuracies to the attention of Detachment Members and LMO. It is recommended that the following steps are followed:

Bring references to the LMO and Detachment to show why the CRL is no longer accurate.
Invite members to make and submit an accurate costume to be included in an updated CRL.
12 months from the date of notification to LMO and Detachment, the Detachment Leader may formally submit a request for the CRL to be retired.
LMO take all information provided, and vote on the retirement.
LMO & DL make an announcement about the outcome of the vote.
When a CRL is to be retired, any members who are working on the costume have 6 months from the date of retirement announcement, to complete their costume and receive approval before the costume is removed from the approvable roster.
Any members who have this costume approved already are ‘grandfathered’, and retain the costume on their individual 501st Legion profile. They are, however, to be encouraged to make the necessary changes to their costume to ensure their costume is accurate.
If the CRL is not retired, the Detachment Leader may submit another request in 12 months time.

Once a CRL has been retired, any costumer who wishes to make the costume must follow the ‘New to the Legion’ application process.

Thanks for the reminder on how we operate, however I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to communicate now. Can you please state clearly what your goal is here?

[andyman97[TX]]

20 minutes ago, nanotek said:

Thanks for the reminder on how we operate, however I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to communicate now. Can you please state clearly what your goal is here?

Let me start by saying I'm not looking for a confrontation.  Your response comes across (to me, at least) as a little hostile/condescending.  The "reminder on how you operate" was strictly in response to the post that "…since it already exists we cant just delete it."  I was only saying that CRLs can be retired and there is a process for doing so and that shouldn't be an obstacle from updating or correcting a CRL.

My goal is to build an accurate costume and join the detachment (and possibly seek specialist).  Several posts in this thread highlight that there are inaccuracies with the current CRL that makes it difficult for someone (like me) to build accurately when the detachment openly acknowledges the CRL is incorrect.  I'm bound by what's written in a CRL unless the detachment says otherwise so I am seeking clarification so I don't have to change things later.  Parts of the CRL have been cited as "accurate" according to references that are inferred and not clear (stand up collar with a closure).  I do think the last paragraph David wrote about creating CRLs based on different available references is worth considering; one possibility is a modular CRL if it was deemed appropriate.

[RAIDER[COTG]]

2 hours ago, andyman97 said:

Let me start by saying I'm not looking for a confrontation.  Your response comes across (to me, at least) as a little hostile/condescending.  The "reminder on how you operate" was strictly in response to the post that "…since it already exists we cant just delete it."  I was only saying that CRLs can be retired and there is a process for doing so and that shouldn't be an obstacle from updating or correcting a CRL.

My goal is to build an accurate costume and join the detachment (and possibly seek specialist).  Several posts in this thread highlight that there are inaccuracies with the current CRL that makes it difficult for someone (like me) to build accurately when the detachment openly acknowledges the CRL is incorrect.  I'm bound by what's written in a CRL unless the detachment says otherwise so I am seeking clarification so I don't have to change things later.  Parts of the CRL have been cited as "accurate" according to references that are inferred and not clear (stand up collar with a closure).  I do think the last paragraph David wrote about creating CRLs based on different available references is worth considering; one possibility is a modular CRL if it was deemed appropriate.

Just to chime in…and steer back to the original topic…

IF (emphasis) you wish to pursue a 100% accurate build to a singular source I would definitely encourage it BUT that would be a much longer (quite possibly impossible) road to what you stated your goals were (membership to the det and specialist status). Nonetheless, Id be more than willing to help. In that case, we could end this particular topic n move to a build thread.

I dont want to go down the rabbit hole of the survival guide topic you referenced (thats an entirely different subject not quite related to the original question posted)…I do have thoughts but that would take us way off road…so that aside…

Going back to the very original topic of the collar…I think in either case whether attempting a comic-specific, trading card specific or video game specific build, I still dont see where a folded down collar or a collar that could be opened and split down the center would stand any check against references to be allowed where I still do feel from what I see that a closed collar holds more true to at least some of the references (though I would agree in others it isnt as apparent if it is a closed collar or simply fabric). The reference I posted earlier for example shows no “split” in the collar from which to fold down and open.  It’s flat (“sealed”) fabric.  All other references also show no split that would allow a fold-down.

But with that said, if you are starting a build now for the current Shadow Scout and seeking approval (or have already started one) I think you should follow the current guidelines pertaining to the collar as I personally dont see anything that would justify an immediate change to the CRL.

Im not sure if you are looking to source your flightsuit from Chef but I do know he makes (made) them with closed collars as he made my original flightsuit.

Hope that helps.

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

On 10/16/2022 at 7:24 AM, andyman97 said:

Let me start by saying I'm not looking for a confrontation.  Your response comes across (to me, at least) as a little hostile/condescending.  The "reminder on how you operate" was strictly in response to the post that "…since it already exists we cant just delete it."  I was only saying that CRLs can be retired and there is a process for doing so and that shouldn't be an obstacle from updating or correcting a CRL.

My goal is to build an accurate costume and join the detachment (and possibly seek specialist).  Several posts in this thread highlight that there are inaccuracies with the current CRL that makes it difficult for someone (like me) to build accurately when the detachment openly acknowledges the CRL is incorrect.  I'm bound by what's written in a CRL unless the detachment says otherwise so I am seeking clarification so I don't have to change things later.  Parts of the CRL have been cited as "accurate" according to references that are inferred and not clear (stand up collar with a closure).  I do think the last paragraph David wrote about creating CRLs based on different available references is worth considering; one possibility is a modular CRL if it was deemed appropriate.

Apologies if I come across as hostile, I am just direct and to the point. From my perspective I just want to help you in the most efficient way possible, so understanding what you intend to do is important.

If I can summarise this conversation; you do not wish to pursue CRL revision and will build your costume to the current CRL. Is this correct?