Imperial Army Sapper-Engineer CRL (Needs Accuracy Review)

[Darth Emphatic[CMD-DWM]]

Placeholding for CRL info/discussion

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

Description: Imperial Engineer Trooper

Prefix: TX

Detachment: Spec Ops Detachment

Context: Star Wars Empire by Dark Horse Comics & Expanded Universe / Legends

 

 

The 501st approval requirements are listed in black.

In the page below, items listed in blue are recommended features that will improve the quality of the costume. Items listed in red are intended to further enhance the finished costume.

For 501st membership only the requirements in black need to be met.

Special Notes:

• Blasters are not required for legion membership per our weapons policy.
  

This Visual Guide has been reviewed by the detachment staff and the LMO team and is certified for use as a minimum approval guideline for GMLs. GMLs are free to approve this costume type.

• This document is not intended to be a detailed how-to on costume construction; rather a visual guide to be used for 501st costume approval.
   
  
• Information on how to construct a costume for 501st approval may be found on the respective costume detachment web forum.
   
  
• GMLs unfamiliar with or uncertain about an aspect of submitted costume shall post questions in the appropriate DL/GML peer review section of the Legion forum.
   
  
• Measurements given in this document are intended to be approximate and generalized; not criteria for approval.
   
  
• Requirements for all 501st costumes are assumed to be proportional to the wearer.
  

Required Costume Components

The following costume components are present and appear as described below

Helmet

For 501st approval:

• Open face helmet whose base consists of a dome with rim and helmet skirt.
  
• The helmet skirt is to be smooth all around with no indentations on the rear.
  
• A telemetry unit is attached centered to the right or left sides of the dome aligned to the rim. The telemetry unit consists of:
  
  • Rectangular box with a slight bevel and details on. The box is in the same color as the helmet.
    
  • 1 screw cap or cylindric knob in the upper left corner
    
  • 2 cylindric pins lined up in the lower left corner of the box
    
  • 1 cylindric pin in the upper right corner of the box
    
  • 1 telemetry unit main detail (Revell V8 carburetor (not the Han Solo half)) aligned at the lower right corner of the box
    

  [*]The helmet is black in color with a flat or satin finish.

  [*]A black trim is covering the edge of the helmet skirt and forehead of the dome.

  [*]Black chin strap and chin cup

  [*]Imperial code disks are on both sides of the helmet skirt.

Goggles

For 501st approval:

• Goggles should have a square-like black frame with angled sides and dark green lenses.
  

Black Imperial Flight Suit

For 501st approval:

• One piece black coverall/ jumpsuit/ flight suit with a front invisible zipper and mandarin collar.
  
• Each shoulder has a patch as noted below.
  
• 2 large chest pockets and 2 large front pockets below the belt without any zipper.
  
• Rank bars of any kind are not permitted.
  
• There are no leg pockets below the knees.
  
• Waistband and gathering of the flightsuit should be hidden under belt
  

For level two certification (if applicable)

• Mandarin collar is closed by a round shaped strap across the neck
  
• A single black snap is present near the round point. Snap does not need to be functional.
  

Imperial Army Patch

For 501st approval:

• Patch is shield shaped
  
• The patch has an Imperial cog symbol approximately 2.75 to 3 inches in diameter.
  
• The background of the patch has a more narrow shield shaped design on top of a box colored a darker shade of green.
  

For level two certification (if applicable):

• A olive green rocker patch is above the imperial army patch with either a unit name or motto.
  

Black Gauntlet Gloves

For 501st approval:

• Black, leather or leather-like, enclosed fingered, non-textured fitted gauntlet style.
  
• No buckles, straps, or decorative stitching.
  
• Three straight lines, on the back of the hand, are option.
  

For level two certification (if applicable):

• Gloves are made of leather
  

For level three certification (if applicable):

• Gauntlets slightly flair-out, upward from the wrist to the mid-forearm
  

Web Harness

For 501st approval:

• Black colored, double strap “H†harness which travels from the lower back, and up over the shoulders.
  
• The harness system attaches to the belt.
  
• Harness is made of 2 inch black nylon webbing.
  

Belt

For 501st approval:

• Belt is a nylon military style quick release web belt.
  
• Belt is black in color.
  
• Belt is grommeted with eyelets along its length.
  

Belt Pouches

For 501st approval:

• Belt pouches are black in color and should be made of nylon or similar material.
  
• MA47 double handcuff MOLLE PALS belt pouches should be on either side of the belt buckle where the harness meets the belt.
  
• A tactical triple magazine PALS belt pouch should be on the rear of the belt where the left harness strap meets the belt.
  
• Any additional black MOLLE style pouches are encouraged to fill out the belt, but are not required.
  

Boots

For 501st approval:

• Calf high black leather or leather like material.
  
• “Jackboot†style
  
• Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments.
  
• Normal leather grain/texture/lines are acceptable.
  
• Tread on the soles and heels is acceptable
  
• Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1".
  
  • This need not be functional.
    

  [*]Hobnails may be present on the front of the jackboots.

  [*]Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed.

  • If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black.
    

For level two certification (if applicable):

• Boots are made of leather
  

For level three certification (if applicable):

• Original German jack boots or an authentic replication
  
• Boots have the top adjustment strap
  
  • Jackboot buckles should not be shiny and may be painted dingy grey or gun metal
    

Imperial Army Pioneer Configuration

For 501st approval:

• Worn: Hat, Flightsuit + Patch, or Patch & Rocket Patch combination, Harness, Belt, Belt Pouches, Boots, Black non-gauntlet gloves
  
• Not worn: Helmet + Goggles, Gauntlet Gloves.
  

Optional Accessories

Items below are optional costume accessories. These items are not required for approval, but if present appear as described below.

Hat, Black

For 501st approval:

• Fabric is a medium weight suiting material of black.
  
• Base of the hat is conical, with a crown about 4" (101.6 mm) tall.
  
• Front and rear “flaps†overlap on the sides and are about 4" (101.6 mm) high.
  
• Front bill extends 3" down, decorated with (5) (6) or (7) concentric stitches.
  
• Imperial Code Disk positioned in the center of the front vertical “flap.â€
  

For level two certification (if applicable)

• Code disk has a notch detail on the outermost disk
  

For level three certification (if applicable)

• Code disk exactly matches screen-used prop
  

Black Gloves

For 501st approval:

• Black gloves made of leather / kevlar or similar material.
  

For level two Certification (if applicable)

• No buckles, no straps, etc.
  
• May have three stitched lines on the back of the hand
  

E-11 Blaster

For 501st approval:

• Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.
  

DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle

For 501st approval:

• Based on a real or replica MG-34 machine gun
  

DLT-20a

For 501st approval:

• Based on a real StG-44 assault rifle.
  

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

Alright a couple of questions

The backpack/shovel combination is that a different named costume altogether?

Also does the officer variant have a rank bar as the reference pics show that they do not?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I would think that that the backpack version would be a different named costume. When I was building mine several years ago, I took that to be a demolitions expert carrying Mengalore torpedoes, and that is how I was intended to build it. Olivier used Thermal Detonators on his orignal build, simliar to what can be interpreted on the art.

 

Question: Has the Pioneer (soft cap, shortie gloves) been removed, or will it be integrated as a option? The main reason I ask is that there is no differentiation in the gloves, like in the original CRL proposal. Engineers had the ganutlets like TIs and Pioneers had short search gloves like Officers. I have both. Only the Trooper near the top has a mention of the guantlets, indicated for level 3. It would be confusing to have the same description, but photos indicating one without guantlets.

Originally the only Tab present was on the Pioneer, but to me it makes sense to add it to both uniforms since it is a distinction that would be earned early in a troopers career.

 

CRL Proposal Observations:

 

Imperial Army [DH1] I believe this should read Imperial Engineer Trooper

 

Web Harness

For 501st approval:

• Black colored, double strap “H†harness which travels from the lower back, and up over the shoulders.
  
• The harness system attaches to the belt.
  
• Harness is made of 2 inch olive green nylon webbing CCP from the Army Trooper, should read black webbing.
  

Belt

For 501st approval:

• Belt is a nylon military style quick release web belt.
  
• Belt is olive green in color. CCP from the Army Trooper, should read black
  

 

Belt Pouches

For 501st approval:

• Belt pouches are black in color and should be made of nylon or similar material.
  
• MA47 double handcuff MOLLE PALS belt pouches should be on either side of the belt buckle where the harness meets the belt.
  
• A tactical triple magazine PALS belt pouch should be on the rear of the belt where the left harness strap meets the belt.
  
• Any additional OD black MOLLE style pouches are encouraged to fill out the belt, but are not required. Strike OD
  

Boots are discussed twice in seperate areas, once under belt, again where you would normally find boots in a typical CRL.

• 
   
  

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

Ok those changes you proposed have been made good eye on those.

Ya know in all honesty i would love it to be an optional accessory for the engineer but after reviewing the photos that is a completely different outfit. Was there any mention of what those are precisely in the comic book an official name? So yet another CRL we can get started on. Quite frankly i think those purple jumpsuits are ugly but the shovel makes up for it.

 

As far as the pioneer it was just i glossed over it so i added it back thanks for pointing that out.

 

I need information to add for these two pew pews:

DLT-20a

For 501st approval:

 

DLT-21

For 501st approval:

 

I would think that that the backpack version would be a different named costume. When I was building mine several years ago, I took that to be a demolitions expert carrying Mengalore torpedoes, and that is how I was intended to build it. Olivier used Thermal Detonators on his orignal build, simliar to what can be interpreted on the art.

 

Question: Has the Pioneer (soft cap, shortie gloves) been removed, or will it be integrated as a option? The main reason I ask is that there is no differentiation in the gloves, like in the original CRL proposal. Engineers had the ganutlets like TIs and Pioneers had short search gloves like Officers. I have both. Only the Trooper near the top has a mention of the guantlets, indicated for level 3. It would be confusing to have the same description, but photos indicating one without guantlets.

Originally the only Tab present was on the Pioneer, but to me it makes sense to add it to both uniforms since it is a distinction that would be earned early in a troopers career.

• 
   
  

[Fenris C[501st]]

A couple things I'd like to mention on this proposed CRL. First, the way that this line reads:

DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle

For 501st approval:

• Based on a real or replica MG-34 machine gun
  

Seems to indicated that resin casts, 3D prints, and high-quality scratchbuilds are not going to be approvable. I would suggest noting that they are(similar to the E-11 line item above this one). I'd also clarify that scratchbuilds need to be high-quality, and 3D printed items should have print lines minimized as much as possible.

 

As far as the DLT-21 goes, I'd actually like some clarification on that, because my google searches are turning up empty, and even the Essential Guide to Weapons has nothing called that. Is it by chance a typo? If so, does it refer to the T-21 Light Repeating Rifle that the TDs carry in ANH(based off of the Lewis Gun)? Or does it refer to the DL-21 Blaster Pistol(based of the Henry Survival Carbine) that we see a couple officers carrying in ROTJ?

 

Further, I know it's a common sense thing, but it might be a good idea to include a disclaimer at the bottom that any builds based off of real weapons must be demilled and permanently rendered inoperable prior to submission for 501st Approval. Just kind of a CYA note, basically.

 

For the jumpsuit, I do think it would be a good idea to notate whether or not the standard IC/TI/IG flightsuit is approvable at the base level. If it is approvable for basic, then I'd move the pocket configuration to either L2 or L3.

 

The section for boots also states the following: Normal leather grain/texture/lines are .

While I think I know what this is supposed to say, there's a word missing. Unless it's simply confirming that such things exist in an existential way. Shouldn't it read as "Normal leather grain/texture/lines are approvable"?

 

I would also suggest that this line: Jackboot buckles should not be shiny and can be painted dingy grey or gun metal

read "Jackboot buckles should not be shiny and can may be painted dingy grey or gun metal

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Thanks, I have worked on a lot of CRLs and Standards over the years and I know that things get left in when copied from the original source text. I know all too well the work and effort that goes into creating these.

 

On the purple suits I have always taken that to be either dark grey or black , but should charcoal be chosen for the coveralls Automotive Workwear has a set of charcoal coveralls in their CT10 line.

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

Yeah I hear ya on that sometimes stuff just gets over looked its good to have multiple eyes on that.

 

True the lighting in the comic book looks legit purple to me so hey if folks want to with charcoal i am all for it. Honestly i think the charcoal color would work very well. My DW costume is basically that color and it works well. But we all know what is the most important part. The Shovel

Thanks, I have worked on a lot of CRLs and Standards over the years and I know that things get left in when copied from the original source text. I know all too well the work and effort that goes into creating these.

 

On the purple suits I have always taken that to be either dark grey or black , but should charcoal be chosen for the coveralls Automotive Workwear has a set of charcoal coveralls in their CT10 line.

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

I understand why you would think that however the reason it does not read that way is because across all CRL's its uniformally not stated that way. If you view CRL's the different weapons that are not E-11s do not have that disclaimer so I wont be adding that. If they want to scratch build it they are welcome to the point of the CRL is to provide a this is how its supposed to look not a guide on you have to make it a certain way using certain materials if that makes sense.

 

That actually might be a typo so let me do some digging see what the deal was with that but good eye on that one. So yeah typo for the blaster since there is no DLT21

 

As far as disclaimers again not something that will be added just because CRL's have a specific uniformity.

 

So for the level 2 level 3 stuff not set in stone yet and I would actually ask the other guy to chime in more on that and also check this thread here because i think they had a good discussion about the level 2 level 3 stuff.

http://forum.501stsp...certifications/

I know technically its for the Army variant but some of the things are similar or if anything start a new thread about level 2 level 3 stuff for the engineer

 

Good eye on that i need to put acceptable at the end of the boots statement.

now that you mentioned the may it sounds better so I will change that.

 

A couple things I'd like to mention on this proposed CRL. First, the way that this line reads:

DLT-19 Heavy Blaster Rifle

For 501st approval:

• Based on a real or replica MG-34 machine gun
  

Seems to indicated that resin casts, 3D prints, and high-quality scratchbuilds are not going to be approvable. I would suggest noting that they are(similar to the E-11 line item above this one). I'd also clarify that scratchbuilds need to be high-quality, and 3D printed items should have print lines minimized as much as possible.

 

As far as the DLT-21 goes, I'd actually like some clarification on that, because my google searches are turning up empty, and even the Essential Guide to Weapons has nothing called that. Is it by chance a typo? If so, does it refer to the T-21 Light Repeating Rifle that the TDs carry in ANH(based off of the Lewis Gun)? Or does it refer to the DL-21 Blaster Pistol(based of the Henry Survival Carbine) that we see a couple officers carrying in ROTJ?

 

Further, I know it's a common sense thing, but it might be a good idea to include a disclaimer at the bottom that any builds based off of real weapons must be demilled and permanently rendered inoperable prior to submission for 501st Approval. Just kind of a CYA note, basically.

 

For the jumpsuit, I do think it would be a good idea to notate whether or not the standard IC/TI/IG flightsuit is approvable at the base level. If it is approvable for basic, then I'd move the pocket configuration to either L2 or L3.

 

The section for boots also states the following: Normal leather grain/texture/lines are .

While I think I know what this is supposed to say, there's a word missing. Unless it's simply confirming that such things exist in an existential way. Shouldn't it read as "Normal leather grain/texture/lines are approvable"?

 

I would also suggest that this line: Jackboot buckles should not be shiny and can be painted dingy grey or gun metal

read "Jackboot buckles should not be shiny and can may be painted dingy grey or gun metal

[vonmoen[501st]]

I think the artist used purple instead of black to make it easier to see the details of the uniform. My bet is that it's supposed to be black.

[pm07[TX]]

Are you going to specify placement of the shoulder patches n this and the IAT CRL like that of other CRL's, IE: 1" from the shoulder seam, for uniformity?

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

I personally don't have an issue with that at all however before jumping i would like to discuss why they did not specify in the first place for the IAT.

Are you going to specify placement of the shoulder patches n this and the IAT CRL like that of other CRL's, IE: 1" from the shoulder seam, for uniformity?

[pm07[TX]]

Roger roger. I wanted to find out before I got mine sewn on.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I would concur with the use of WW and other prefab ready made suits with the removal of arm pockets for level 1 and using a converted suit for level 2 and 3.

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

I am so sorry i knew i had to reply to someone but things got buried and i had a hectic weekend. So i was thinking about the shoulder thing i think in general people know that on the shoulder it should be centered on the shoulder rather than giving a specific measurement. but i do like the idea and wouldnt be so far fetched but i think for this we can keep it off for now so its in uniformity with the army trooper one since it seems everyone is able to figure out where the patch goes and havent had any issues with placement and making the costume.

Roger roger. I wanted to find out before I got mine sewn on.

[DeathMOS30[501st]]

So are we calling this imperial sapper engineer or imperial engineer or imperial engineer trooper?

Also im not sure if we came to a conclusion about the trooper with the backpack and shovel thing was their a definite on it being a different costume completely or just a variation of the engineer?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

For myself I like the term Imperial Engineer for a helmeted version and Imperial Sapper for the soft cap version. Engineers are trained as Combat Engineers and that is their first function.

 

reasoning:

Different Armies call their combat engineers by different names but at least in US usage a Sapper is someone who has received the training as a combat engineer, but that is not their primary MOS. A red SAPPER skill tab is awarded.

 

Discussion;

 

In almost all regards this is the same uniform with the helmet goggles and gloves being the difference. The soft cap version is in most respects the easier to obtain and get up and running. In many cases people already have a hat or two. The listed short gloves are VERY cheap and easy to get and there is no lead time while a helmet is sourced, alongwith associated vendor wait time.

 

Regarding the trooper with a backpack, the art for this looks somewhat different and as we have discussed in another thread the color can be construed as charcoal. While it can be argued that this is just a different trooper who happens to have a pack, more pouches on the belt and helmet/ goggles to me this leans towards a different trooper, as we see with Heavy weapons TKs. For sake of discussion Ill use the term Demolitions Trooper.

 

For this demolitions trooper i see two paths:

 

A: use charcoal coveralls as a base and write a new CRL around that including all elements as a one shot for basic approval.

 

B : make the backpack shovel and additional pouches an option for the non armored helmeted Engineer.

 

 

[Darth Emphatic[CMD-DWM]]

Do we have the visual sources that will distinguish these two?

[izzi[TX]]

Hey everyone, There may be a slight hold on with this. We've been going over all of our references and there may need to be major changes to this. Basically so far either the troopers have the officer hat, OR they have both the helmet and the Backpack. We don't have references for a trooper having a Helmet without a pack. SO there may be some upcoming changes to the CRL upon further CRL Team Review.

 

That being said, Tarrif has Joined the CRL for the upcoming year and will be working closely with the rest of the team to be sure the CRL are accurate to the supporting references. We're excited to see these costumes come to life.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Standing by

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Has there been any.progress on this?

[izzi[TX]]

Has there been any.progress on this?

 

Right now we've had the shift of command this month and everyone settling into their new positions, and talking with the LMOs.

 

The "Pioneer Configuration" as been removed from this CRL and given it's own which can be found here: http://forum.501stsp...nding-approval/

As we have a current build for that, it's our next focus along with a couple clean up items in the IA Trooper CRL.

 

I can tell you the the Sappers or Combat Engineers, will require the helmet, goggles, and packpack in the CRL as seen here:

 

 

 

That's all we currently have. It's the next thing on the list to have our focus after the Engineer submission for approval.

[izzi[TX]]

This costume has been reviewed by members of the CRL team and this CRL is going to need to be re-written for accuracy reasons. Please keep contributing any thoughts and research on this costume so we can discuss including it in the future CRL proposal.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Im pulling this topic into Word so I can print it out and go over it and compare to images.

[izzi[TX]]

There are enough inaccuracies in this one that it would be better to use the Engineer CRL as the base and build on top of that for the sapper. Eventually that will be tackled,. Once we have the Engineer photos in place and that process going we will be reformatting and revising the IA Trooper though.