complete Sithtrooper Cuirass & Gorget (Chest/Back Armor/Collar) - Draft CRL Development Discussion

[gmrhodes13[501st]]

Just now, Chaos said:

Hey has anyone thought about this ... TK helmets are difficult for some of us larger noggin dudes to put on so we twist it because it is an oval shape. What's to say that the neck opening be more of an oval shape and we just twist the noggin thru it? I haven't seen Jim's kit in person, Glen @gmrhodes13 does Jim's kit look like the neck opening could be oval'd enough to permit it to be twisted on?

No I tried that, it's just larger than the neck, would not fit over the head 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

1 hour ago, gmrhodes13 said:

Food for thought, if decided a slit is not allowable at basic how many GML's would actually notice that and just approve it with the slit (as we see with so many other things)

 

Ive seen GMLs approve alot of things...obvious things...thats probably not the best standard lol.  Theyre gonna do what theyre gonna do.

PS I get what youre saying though.

[gmrhodes13[501st]]

5 minutes ago, Raider said:

Ive seen GMLs approve alot of things...obvious things...thats probably not the best standard lol.  Theyre gonna do what theyre gonna do.

PS I get what youre saying though.

?

[Skablaze]

For a level 1 approval that's is totally fine for me.

[JoeShoe[TX]]

I wanna echo what @Raider mentioned earlier and thank everyone for adding their input into this discussion.  As helpful as Facebook groups can be, for Formal CRL development, Its best to have the discussion in an easily traceable and accountable format.  

Here's what Im proposing with the Gorget 

Gorget (Collar) - One piece that goes under the cuirass to form the neckline of the armor

• Finished in a high gloss deep red that matches the colors of the entire costume
• 3 rings that are steps
• Fits closely to the Neck Seal, and appears to be part of the cuirass's center recess
• If there is a seam, it is minimal/only visible upon close inspection (not sure of the verbage here)
• 15 raised sections on the step closest to the armor that start and end at the shoulders
  • One centre raised section that matches the width of the opening of lower part of the cuirass opening at the front
  • 7 smaller and evenly spaced raised sections that extend towards the shoulder 
    • Segments 1-5 (from the center) and 7 are 1"
    • Segment 6 (from the center)  is 2"

OPTIONAL (Level 2)

• Gorget is constructed from a flexible material 
• Gorget is seamless 
• The center 'recess' of the cuirass is part of the gorget, forming a single piece that is worn around the neck and over the chest.  (Idk if this should be part of a "L3", or part of L2

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

6 hours ago, JoeShoe said:

I wanna echo what @Raider mentioned earlier and thank everyone for adding their input into this discussion.  As helpful as Facebook groups can be, for Formal CRL development, Its best to have the discussion in an easily traceable and accountable format.  

Here's what Im proposing with the Gorget 

Gorget (Collar) - One piece that goes under the cuirass to form the neckline of the armor

• Fits closely to the Neck Seal, and appears to be part of the cuirass's center recess

OPTIONAL (Level 2)

 

• The center 'recess' of the cuirass is part of the gorget, forming a single piece that is worn around the neck and over the chest.  (Idk if this should be part of a "L3", or part of L2

Do you have reference material that supports this? I can only find reference from the evolution of the stormtrooper video that they are separate. I am following up to confirm this detail with someone close to the production staff. As it stands this is the best reference we have. 

 

I know you guys want to nut out the L1 & L2 but I think it would be better if we could concentrate on getting all the details captured first and then deciding L1/L2

[JoeShoe[TX]]

yeah my bad. for some reason i thought the assembly guide showed that center section and the neck as one piece.  The Center plate is actually a much later piece that the the 'wings' of the cuirass form around

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

May I add those shots to the primary reference pic thread @nanotek and @JoeShoe?

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

10 hours ago, Raider said:

May I add those shots to the primary reference pic thread @nanotek and @JoeShoe?

We can add them, but it's unclear if this was the design approach they landed on. There are other pics that show that the gorget is larger and shaped differently. 

[gmrhodes13[501st]]

Just a question, but aren't we trying to replicate the "look" of the costume, do we need to make it exactly how it was produced by a company with an unlimited movie/costume budget, at the end of the day we are wearing a costume which the public have pictures with, they are not interested how every piece is held together, they just see the end product.

It is after all a piece with only a small area seen from the outside.

This comes back to the basic approval, yes for L2 and L3 every piece could be exactly how it was first intended but for basic approval I think we are over working this. 

 

[Lee_C_77[TX]]

11 hours ago, gmrhodes13 said:

Just a question, but aren't we trying to replicate the "look" of the costume, do we need to make it exactly how it was produced by a company with an unlimited movie/costume budget, at the end of the day we are wearing a costume which the public have pictures with, they are not interested how every piece is held together, they just see the end product.

It is after all a piece with only a small area seen from the outside.

This comes back to the basic approval, yes for L2 and L3 every piece could be exactly how it was first intended but for basic approval I think we are over working this. 

 

X2 This happened during the Praetorian Guard crl.  On screen they used a wetsuit as the undersuit. In real life and outside the comfort of a cooled studio, this would never work. Hence common sense took over. Whilst screen accuracy is super important, we have to build and wear these at cons etc and our budget is a lot less than Disney’s. 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

19 hours ago, gmrhodes13 said:

Just a question, but aren't we trying to replicate the "look" of the costume, do we need to make it exactly how it was produced by a company with an unlimited movie/costume budget, at the end of the day we are wearing a costume which the public have pictures with, they are not interested how every piece is held together, they just see the end product.

It is after all a piece with only a small area seen from the outside.

This comes back to the basic approval, yes for L2 and L3 every piece could be exactly how it was first intended but for basic approval I think we are over working this. 

 

Sure. We can drop the whole cuirass and gorget option for L1 and just have a chest and back. That would certainly make the build less difficult and still achieve the same result

[gmrhodes13[501st]]

I'm still looking at this neck opening/slit now as I have it setup so I can view from behind and I'm not seeing there to be an improvement now moving to the top of the shoulder, there is a slant forwards with the armor and I think it's going to be noticed more than having it at the back.

Here is what I have now

Proposed move. If you turned sideways at all, from the front it would be noticed. 

\

 

Thoughts?

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

Body paint .... no seam ?

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

In all honesty, I think if the seam is in the back and a comment about "as unnoticeable as possible" for L1 approval should suffice. We could over think this and we'd still be working on it when Episode 25 comes out.

[JoeShoe[TX]]

Gorget (Collar) - One piece that goes under the cuirass to form the neckline of the armor

• Finished in a high gloss deep red that matches the colors of the entire costume
• 3 rings that are steps
• Fits closely to the Neck Seal, and appears to be part of the cuirass
• If there is a seam, it is as unnoticeable as possible
• 15 raised sections on the step closest to the armor that start and end at the shoulders
  • One centre raised section that matches the width of the opening of lower part of the cuirass opening at the front
  • 7 smaller and evenly spaced raised sections that extend towards the shoulder 
    • Segments 1-5 (from the center) and 7 are 1"
    • Segment 6 (from the center)  is 2"

OPTIONAL (Level 2)

• Gorget is constructed from a flexible material 
• Gorget is seamless 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

@JoeShoe Seems (pun intended) reasonable. I will marinate on the seam line to see if there is a better way we can define it and where it should be situated...but I can get on board with this (pending any details we may find need to added from blu-ray of course).

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

@JoeShoe

@Raider @gmrhodes13 and I have been discussing options around the gorget, and whether or not there are other options that will make it more open to others.

We have multiple options available to us, whether we choose all or one will have to be balanced and fair for everyone.

@gmrhodes13 raised an interesting point about why are we trying to replicate the exact method of production? This opened up another option that may play in favour of more people where there is no gorget for level 1, but instead it's just a chest and back with the gorget details included as a neckline. The seams could then be located on the shoulder line where the buckles are. This would reduce the complication of the costume almost immediately for both makers and builders. However this will make the CRL tricky in terms of going from L1 to L2. In a way this makes more sense to me because; why bother with a gorget at all if you cannot replicate it correctly? Leave that for level 2. But then I am faced with the challenge of writing the CRL correctly, but that's ok I like challenges!

However if we decide to move down the path of semi-reproducing the production method and have the gorget for L1, then we need to decide not only the placement and number of seams, but the rules around that seam. i.e the seam should be unnoticeable, securely closed with no overlaps or gap present. The gorget sits flat around the neckline, there are no upward curves.

I have locked down the rest of the CRL threads so that we can focus on this set of armor. I will attempt to write out the remaining details for the cuirass in the meantime, as no matter which option we choose the details are still there.

With all fo that in mind and with regards to your proposal, I would make the following changes

9 hours ago, JoeShoe said:

Gorget (Collar) - One piece that goes under the cuirass to form the neckline of the armor

• Finished in a high gloss deep red that matches the colors of the entire costume
• Sits flat around the neckline
• Can be a separate piece or part of chest and back sections of the cuirass forming the neckline
• Sits under the cuirass (or chest back) and fits closely to the Neck Seal and appears to be part of the cuirass
• If there is a seam or seams present, it is as unnoticeable as possible they shall be securely closed with no visible overlaps or gap present. Positioning of the seam/s may be either:
  • a single line down the centre of the back or
  • two seams running from the neckline to shoulder in line with the shoulder buckles of the cuirass (chest & back)
• 3 rings that are steps forming rings around the neckline, ascending from the neckline to the cuirass or chest/back. The third ring from the neckline and is closest to the armor has the following details:
  • 15 raised sections on the step closest to the armor that start and end at the shoulders
    • One centre raised section that matches the width of the opening of lower front part of the cuirass opening
    • 7 smaller and evenly spaced raised sections that extend towards the shoulder 
      • Segments 1-5 (from the center section) and 7 are roughly 1" wide
      • Segment 6 (from the center)  is roughly 2" wide

OPTIONAL (Level 2)

• The gorget must be a separate piece with no seam
• Gorget is constructed from a flexible material (optional)

 

I think the explanation of the raised sections can be better. I'm trying to think of how can I make this easy for both builders and GML's to read and understand

[JoeShoe[TX]]

that seems absolutely reasonable, and i have no objections.  my only question is the section about the 15 raised sections on the ring.  Is that not the lowest ring?  shouldnt that be defined?

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

On 2/2/2020 at 4:33 PM, JoeShoe said:

that seems absolutely reasonable, and i have no objections.  my only question is the section about the 15 raised sections on the ring.  Is that not the lowest ring?  shouldnt that be defined?

 

Here is the same text again broken down:

1) 3 steps forming rings around the neckline, 

2) ascending from the neckline to the cuirass or chest/back.

3) The third ring from the neckline and is closest to the armor has the following details:

• 15 raised sections that start and end at the shoulders

 

[JoeShoe[TX]]

gotcha. my mistake.  The text wasnt clear to me, but after reading it a little more closely, i see it now.  All good here for me

[JoeShoe[TX]]

On 8/1/2019 at 5:41 PM, nanotek said:

Cuirass (Chest/Back Armor)

• Finished in a high gloss deep red that matches the colors of the entire costume
• The chest and back can be divided into 5 separate sections that are assembled to form the cuirass with a bib/poncho as separate
  • Cuirass
    • Back
    • Left
    • Right
    • Centre
  • Collar/Bib
• Back
  • O II (02) shape is made up of recessed II and the O is a recessed circle with a recessed line dividing the circle in half.
    • The bottom part of the circle is recessed, is black and is slightly smaller in appearance than the top half.
    • There is a small black vertical pill recesses in the top half.
    • Raised trapezoidal section that starts at the base of the back and extends towards the left shoulder. There is a small recessed rectangle directly about the top of the trapezoid and is black. The top of the Trapezoid is the same width as the bottom of the recessed trapezoid under the top left shoulder. The angle of the top of the this trapezoid is parallel to the bottom of the recessed trapezoid at the base of the left buckle
• Shoulder Bridges
  • The Shoulder bridges are a continuous part of the front and back armor, joining at the 'buckles'
• • There are two trapezoidal "buckles" at the back of the shoulders
  • There is a recessed trapezoidal shape at the bottom of the left shoulder buckle that has recessed lines/ribs
    • The bottom of the this shape is the same length as the top half of the lower trapezoidal section.
    • The angle of the bottom matches the angle of the top of the bottom trapezoid.
    • The recessed/raised lines do not extend all the way to the bottom
    • The inside line of the trapezoid matches the angle of the buckle
  • There are 8 Lines at the top of the shoulder bridges, running diagonally across in a pattern that matches the images.
• Chest
  • 3 vertical pill shaped recesses near the top near the centre piece
  • Both sides connect to the back armor
  • Raised smooth/flat section at front extends towards back. Starts as rectangular and tapers to match shoulder/arm hole
  • There are recessed lines that begin running parallel from the bottom edge of the back and continue to the front of the armor, terminating when the lines reach the top edge of the raised chest panel details on the left and right side. (we shouldnt define the number of lines - troopers of varying sizes will have more or less visible depending on how much they need to shim or cut down)
  • There are 27 recessed lines that run diagonally from the arm hole to the top of the respective raised chest panel details 
  • Two Raised Chest Panels on the bottom section of the chest, running along thearmor's edge
    • Left panel Details
      • One recessed diagonal channel
    • Right Panel Details
      • Small rectangular box/raised area with 13 vertical and slightly angled recessed lines
        • extends slightly lower and outwards from raised chest section
      • two clip greeblies in a recessed cavity just above the box
      • Ribbed section between the two clip greeblies
• Centre
  • Centre section that has the appearance of being a separate piece
  • 12 rectangular, horizontal recesses in lower section
  • 5 vertical recess in upper section
  • small rectangular recess near the top

• Gorget (Collar) 

• Finished in a high gloss deep red that matches the colors of the entire costume
• Sits flat around the neckline
• Can be a separate piece or part of chest and back sections of the cuirass forming the neckline
• Sits under the cuirass (or chest back) and fits closely to the Neck Seal
• If there is a seam or seams present, they shall be securely closed with no visible overlaps or gap present. Positioning of the seam/s may be either:
  • a single line down the centre of the back or
  • two seams running from the neckline to shoulder in line with the shoulder buckles of the cuirass (chest & back)
• 3 steps forming rings around the neckline, ascending from the neckline to the cuirass or chest/back.
• The third ring from the neckline and is closest to the armor has the following details:
  • 15 raised sections on the that start and end at the shoulders
    • One centre raised section that matches the width of the opening of lower front part of the cuirass opening
    • 7 smaller and evenly spaced raised sections that extend towards the shoulder 
      • Segments 1-5 (from the center section) and 7 are roughly 1" wide
      • Segment 6 (from the center)  is roughly 2" wide

• OPTIONAL (Level 2)

• The gorget must be a separate piece with no seam
• Gorget is constructed from a flexible material (optional)

 

Lets keep the momentum going.
Ive added some more details to the whole section - please let me know your thoughts.

 

thanks

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Just chiming in.  I've read it.  For my part just so it's out in the open...I'm trying to clear other CRL projects to make room for more of my attention to this when the blu-ray drops.  We have quite a bit of the drafting process done.  What we come up with now will need to be fact-checked to whatever info we can glean (if anything new) from the blu-ray footage.  It's the same approach we did w/ our last movie costume the Mudtrooper.

What I can say...regarding the counted details.  I cannot imagine a GML attempting to count each and every line detail on all of these pieces.  Thinking out loud (and feel free to say I'm wrong lol)...but a range may be the better approach.  This may also help accomodate larger/smaller members that may have to mod the details  (i.e. the number of grooves) in order to maintain proportionality with their body.  Then...we can if it's absolutely necessary add specific counts to Level 2.  Thoughts?

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

1 hour ago, Raider said:

Just chiming in.  I've read it.  For my part just so it's out in the open...I'm trying to clear other CRL projects to make room for more of my attention to this when the blu-ray drops.  We have quite a bit of the drafting process done.  What we come up with now will need to be fact-checked to whatever info we can glean (if anything new) from the blu-ray footage.  It's the same approach we did w/ our last movie costume the Mudtrooper.

What I can say...regarding the counted details.  I cannot imagine a GML attempting to count each and every line detail on all of these pieces.  Thinking out loud (and feel free to say I'm wrong lol)...but a range may be the better approach.  This may also help accomodate larger/smaller members that may have to mod the details  (i.e. the number of grooves) in order to maintain proportionality with their body.  Then...we can if it's absolutely necessary add specific counts to Level 2.  Thoughts?

The counting of lines came about as a means to distinguish between the Hot Toy and the costume. I agree that no GML will want to count all the lines but it’s going to be difficult to word in a way that will cover this. Even if you put a range in, GML still has to verify. 
 

Judging by some if the talk about town, the BluRay won’t reveal much more than we have already. 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

1 hour ago, nanotek said:

The counting of lines came about as a means to distinguish between the Hot Toy and the costume. I agree that no GML will want to count all the lines but it’s going to be difficult to word in a way that will cover this. Even if you put a range in, GML still has to verify. 

A GML would be "estimating" more than anything I'd imagine...at basic that might be ok.  Once you put a hard count in...a GML has the right to reject it if it's one line too many or too few.  Hence the range.
 

Judging by some if the talk about town, the BluRay won’t reveal much more than we have already. 

If you'd like to move things forward and increase pace...then by all means.  I have heard it's possible a more hefty blu ray release is slated...but I don't think we need to wait that long most certainly.