Death Trooper - Boots

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

Can anyone confirm, are the Killer boots from Imperial Boots approvable?

 

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Yes

[Greido[501st]]

 

Yes

Thank you!!

 

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[CyberNinja89]

An update to this thread for future DT doing research, Dr. Marten's Mayers are out of production and Talibs appears to be going out too.

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

On 7/24/2020 at 1:11 AM, CyberNinja89 said:

An update to this thread for future DT doing research, Dr. Marten's Mayers are out of production and Talibs appears to be going out too.

Looks like we may be resorting to Nike Penetrator Hi tops and paint them black LOL Its a cap toed shoe and the sole sides are close enough.

 

[darthRivera[TX]]

On 5/2/2018 at 3:39 PM, nanotek said:

 

Yes

Basic approval only?  Or for level 2 will they work?

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

On 8/5/2020 at 4:46 AM, darthRivera said:

Basic approval only?  Or for level 2 will they work?

Seeing as they are a very close replica I do not see why not. I would have to look at them very closely and check the updated text being prepared by @Chaos I don't have time to do this research at the moment due to heavy workload

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

13 minutes ago, nanotek said:

Seeing as they are a very close replica I do not see why not. I would have to look at them very closely and check the updated text being prepared by @Chaos I don't have time to do this research at the moment due to heavy workload

@darthRivera and @nanotek The IB Killer boots are indeed Level 1 and Level 2 as they have the appropriate toe and sole/heel requirements. What's makes them Level 2 would be the pull tab midway up on the heel. Talibs and Meyers can be Level 2 by placing/sewing a 1/2 inch wide folded leather pull tab midway up the heel. The top ankle padding is a bonus but not required 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

On 8/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, Chaos said:

@darthRivera and @nanotek The IB Killer boots are indeed Level 1 and Level 2 as they have the appropriate toe and sole/heel requirements. What's makes them Level 2 would be the pull tab midway up on the heel. Talibs and Meyers can be Level 2 by placing/sewing a 1/2 inch wide folded leather pull tab midway up the heel. The top ankle padding is a bonus but not required 

they even have the exact sole  On mine they do, logo and all!

[kevair464[501st]]

I found a pair of the out of production Talibs, but they are navy blue, wondering if the leather was dyed black if that would be acceptable

[DHKnecht]

20 hours ago, kevair464 said:

I found a pair of the out of production Talibs, but they are navy blue, wondering if the leather was dyed black if that would be acceptable

If you are able to re-dye it black with the same look, I think you'd be fine.  However, the trouble is dyeing it to the right level of black.  I've done some work with leather and dyeing one color over another works if you are going darker, which is the case here.  What you don't know, though, is what type of sealant they use on the leather, though you might be able to call Doc Marten company and find out.  The bottom line is the new dye might not take well, or be splotchy, based on how they sealed the leather against water, stains, etc.

good luck!

[kevair464[501st]]

Boots in question.  They look black already, save from the laces and the underside of the soul.  They are described as "navy blue"

[Jayse01]

So like everyone else, seems to be a problem finding the Jered unless you are real lucky. 

The Talib also. Best option so far has to be the IB option. atleast it will be ok for L1 and L2. Also cuts done on the work for the front boot rib. 

I think I will go with that option, as I have spent alot of time trying the find the Jered boots. 

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

@Jayse01 to be honest, unless you can find Jareds or Talibs in your size, the IB boot is your next best choice, I've watched many people try and rationalize a boot that they have found that is less expensive and might meet CRL but would need modifications. The time and money spent doing that could be better spent on another part of the costume.

[Lt. Dan[501st]]

Ok for me as a rooky, again are the Talib´s approvable for level 2?

When I´m right I have to do this as @nanotek stated: "Talibs and Meyers can be Level 2 by placing/sewing a 1/2 inch wide folded leather pull tab midway up the heel"???

My Talib´s have this leather pull tabs. Do I only have to transfer them from the top of the heel to the middle?

Thanks!

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

11 minutes ago, Lt. Dan said:

Ok for me as a rooky, again are the Talib´s approvable for level 2?

When I´m right I have to do this as @nanotek stated: "Talibs and Meyers can be Level 2 by placing/sewing a 1/2 inch wide folded leather pull tab midway up the heel"???

My Talib´s have this leather pull tabs. Do I only have to transfer them from the top of the heel to the middle?

Thanks!

I think you were referring to @Chaos stated below:

On 8/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, Chaos said:

@darthRivera and @nanotek The IB Killer boots are indeed Level 1 and Level 2 as they have the appropriate toe and sole/heel requirements. What's makes them Level 2 would be the pull tab midway up on the heel. Talibs and Meyers can be Level 2 by placing/sewing a 1/2 inch wide folded leather pull tab midway up the heel. The top ankle padding is a bonus but not required 

To be honest with you, I would just buy the Imperial Boots because I'm lazy. Leather matching and sewing leather to already treated shoes just sounds too painful to me

 

[Lt. Dan[501st]]

9 hours ago, nanotek said:

Leather matching and sewing leather to already treated shoes just sounds too painful to me

Haha, you're right!? Problem is that I already have a pair of new Talibs here and just thought how to get them to level 2. If its only a question of moving the pull tab a few centimeters then it should be no problem for a shoemaker, instead of buying much more expensive new IB boots and selling the Talibs again?

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

9 hours ago, Lt. Dan said:

Haha, you're right!? Problem is that I already have a pair of new Talibs here and just thought how to get them to level 2. If its only a question of moving the pull tab a few centimeters then it should be no problem for a shoemaker, instead of buying much more expensive new IB boots and selling the Talibs again?

Ok, I'm just now seeing this, been traveling, so this is how I interpret Level 2. Its purpose is to make your costume as screen accurate as possible. The boots Level 2 require "original Doc Martens Jareds or REPLICA." Talibs and Meyers are close, but technically not replicas, so to replicate the Jared, the pull tab and heel stitching pattern, along with the ankle padding, should replicate what is seen in the reference photos. Now how GMLs and the Detachment staff interpret that for Level 2 is the question and should be a discussion in it self. Is it replicated when worn with the shins? Or is it replicated when the whole boot (seen and unseen parts) replicates the Jared? 

Step back and look at it this way, TKs Centurion Level 2 requires "split rivets" the only visible way to verify that is to look inside at the unseen back of the rivot. So should our boots be replicas regardless of what is seen or unseen?

I originally said that its the location of tab that can make Talibs Level 2, that was because it will usually be seen when shins are worn due to the fit of the shins over the boot. But after more thought, should we go the split rivet route?

@nanotek  @Blackwatch @IcyTrooper @RAIDER

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Ok, I'm just now seeing this, been traveling, so this is how I interpret Level 2. Its purpose is to make your costume as screen accurate as possible. The boots Level 2 require "original Doc Martens Jareds or REPLICA." Talibs and Meyers are close, but technically not replicas, so to replicate the Jared, the pull tab and heel stitching pattern, along with the ankle padding, should replicate what is seen in the reference photos. Now how GMLs and the Detachment staff interpret that for Level 2 is the question and should be a discussion in it self. Is it replicated when worn with the shins? Or is it replicated when the whole boot (seen and unseen parts) replicates the Jared? 

Step back and look at it this way, TKs Centurion Level 2 requires "split rivets" the only visible way to verify that is to look inside at the unseen back of the rivot. So should our boots be replicas regardless of what is seen or unseen?

I originally said that its the location of tab that can make Talibs Level 2, that was because it will usually be seen when shins are worn due to the fit of the shins over the boot. But after more thought, should we go the split rivet route?

@nanotek  @Blackwatch @IcyTrooper @RAIDER

As far as L2 goes, that is strictly at the detachment level and the GML should be motioned to refer the applicant to the detachment for consideration. They should only be verifying that it meets the L1 requirements.

With costumes that have certain details that are only available when the item itself is not on the costume we will require the applicant send pictures of individual costume pieces to verify the L2 requirements. For example, on stormtrooper-based costumes we'll have them send a separate picture of the helmet to verify the "s-trim" on the bottom of the helmet, or with the shadow scout and mudtrooper we'll have the applicant put a tape measure up against straps, etc.

If you can successfully replicate the boot in appearance and meet all guidelines associated with it there should be no issue. This would cover any specified stitching methods, material, method of securing, etc.

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

@IcyTrooper I concur, I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same sheet of music before @Lt. Dan pulled the trigger on a shoe maker to modify his Talibs so he knows exactly what is needed. For Level 2, the boots need to replicate the Jared's as pictured

[Lt. Dan[501st]]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

@Lt. Dan pulled the trigger on a shoe maker to modify his Talibs so he knows exactly what is needed

I didn´t pull the trigger on a shoe maker, I said it should be no problem for a shoemaker to move a pull tab a few centimeters if needed?Apart from the pull tab I´m a bit confused about the padding also, because in a former answer it was said:

On 8/11/2020 at 10:07 AM, nanotek said:

The top ankle padding is a bonus but not required

Now the Talibs should be modified as mentioned:

 

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

For Level 2, the boots need to replicate the Jared's as pictured

That means for me that the padding is not optional but mandatory for level 2. From my point of view, there still seems to be a lot of potential for discussion about the boots. But as the new CRL is online and binding now, I´ll concentrate on level 1 requirements and keep the Talibs as they are ?

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

1 hour ago, Lt. Dan said:

I didn´t pull the trigger on a shoe maker, I said it should be no problem for a shoemaker to move a pull tab a few centimeters if needed?Apart from the pull tab I´m a bit confused about the padding also, because in a former answer it was said:

Now the Talibs should be modified as mentioned:

 

That means for me that the padding is not optional but mandatory for level 2. From my point of view, there still seems to be a lot of potential for discussion about the boots. But as the new CRL is online and binding now, I´ll concentrate on level 1 requirements and keep the Talibs as they are ?

 

A Level 2 Specialist app would/could/should be required to show some additional details...even some unseen.  The padding is part of the boot...even a replica...and I do agree w/ you that would be a req for L2 approval.

That may not have been the original intent but thats definitely how I interpret it and would when our first L2 applicant steps forward understanding how the Specialist application process works.  Keep in mind some of the discussion dates back to August and so  the responses back then 4 months ago may be slightly dated as well.

[Jayse01]

Ok, so if you are going for above L1, then Jered or IB boots are what you would need. However would any boot with a flat sole be ok?

Just as long as no heel. 

It would also come down to the $s spent to replicate the correct style boot, which is a hard find if we are talking Jereds or talib boots. And then to find in your size. 

Im all for making kits as close to the screen used. However if your just looking for a L1 kit, I would think some sway would need to be included, considering that Jereds are no longer in production. 

Again this does come down to the DL and GML. 

Im using an 850 armour with a prop makers helmet. The boots seem to be my MAJOR problem. And even more so now that IB has closed all shipping till 2021. 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

3 hours ago, Jayse01 said:

Ok, so if you are going for above L1, then Jered or IB boots are what you would need. However would any boot with a flat sole be ok?

Just as long as no heel. 

It would also come down to the $s spent to replicate the correct style boot, which is a hard find if we are talking Jereds or talib boots. And then to find in your size. 

Im all for making kits as close to the screen used. However if your just looking for a L1 kit, I would think some sway would need to be included, considering that Jereds are no longer in production. 

Again this does come down to the DL and GML. 

Im using an 850 armour with a prop makers helmet. The boots seem to be my MAJOR problem. And even more so now that IB has closed all shipping till 2021. 

The only reference to Jered boots are in L2 which is a detachment program. For L1 the boots just need to match the image and text of the CRL for L1. If you can recreate that look I don't see why it would be an issue for a GML.

When developing CRLs we take into effect global distribution and parts, etc. for L1 whereas L2 may often require that extra mile or cost for realism.

[DHKnecht]

To Detachment Staff:

You might be opening a can of worms here.  If the padded part of the boots that is unseen becomes a requirement for Level 2, then what about the "corset" style of the abdomen/back plate?  or the metal shoulder/side buckles?  or how the shoulder bells attach?  There really could be an endless discussion of detail that only the maker would know is there, and there is no real consensus on what strapping and attachment is accurate.  If we later find out that no velcro was used anywhere, and it was all snaps and buckles, will we have to redo all of that?  Is that what Level 2 is all about, or is it more for accurate *visible* detail?  Personally, I'd stick with Chaos statement that it is only what is actually seen and visible, rather than what is underneath.

As to the boots, Jereds and the replica "Killer" boots from Imperial Boots both fit the bill of course.  If you want to modify a Mayer or Talib (or other boot) so that visible details are identical to the Jered, then that should be good too.  Otherwise, people will be spending money buying new boots or modifying something that no one will see.

If you bring in the "split rivet" discussion, the argument there is that the rivet head can be seen, and using the right type of rivet adds to the level of detail (even if you have to show an unseen area to prove it's the right type of rivet).  yes, that might be splitting hairs, but at least it's a distinction.

 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

15 minutes ago, DHKnecht said:

To Detachment Staff:

You might be opening a can of worms here.  If the padded part of the boots that is unseen becomes a requirement for Level 2, then what about the "corset" style of the abdomen/back plate?  or the metal shoulder/side buckles?  or how the shoulder bells attach?  There really could be an endless discussion of detail that only the maker would know is there, and there is no real consensus on what strapping and attachment is accurate.  If we later find out that no velcro was used anywhere, and it was all snaps and buckles, will we have to redo all of that?  Is that what Level 2 is all about, or is it more for accurate *visible* detail?  Personally, I'd stick with Chaos statement that it is only what is actually seen and visible, rather than what is underneath.

As to the boots, Jereds and the replica "Killer" boots from Imperial Boots both fit the bill of course.  If you want to modify a Mayer or Talib (or other boot) so that visible details are identical to the Jered, then that should be good too.  Otherwise, people will be spending money buying new boots or modifying something that no one will see.

If you bring in the "split rivet" discussion, the argument there is that the rivet head can be seen, and using the right type of rivet adds to the level of detail (even if you have to show an unseen area to prove it's the right type of rivet).  yes, that might be splitting hairs, but at least it's a distinction.

 

All these other requirements that we are discussing and I'm still a little confused on what is up. The only two requirements for L2 are:

• Original Dr Martens “Jered” shoes or replicas with a leather pull tab midway on the heel.
• The rectangular panels shall not be wider than the width of the top of the shoe and will lay as flat as possible against the shoe with the front edge not extending past the upper and sole seam.

Is the problem the pull tab? The rectangular panels is what the shoe gaskets are on, so that makes sense. You can indeed see some of the details on the back of the boot and on the front and that is what we are specifying.

If you meet the requirements of L1 and the two bullet point of L2 then it is good for L2. There is nothing in the text about the rivet head, thus it wouldn't be something that we even bring up in a L2 application. I'm also not seeing anything about pads in the L1 or L2 text.