Finalizing CRL Proposal - SCAR Squadron - Task Force 99: Sergeant Kreel (#59/60)

[darthRivera[TX]]

17 minutes ago, RAIDER said:

Lightsaber

• The lightsaber is accurate to what is shown in the illustrations within "Star Wars by Marvel Comics (2018) - Issue #59.
• The lightsaber is only included as long as it's in compliance with the applicant’s local laws.

This should be sufficient.  we could add:  The metal has a chrome appearance, main hilt and hand grip are black in color.  For Lv2 the lightsaber has a green colored blade. I don't know, things like that.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

2 hours ago, RAIDER said:

The final bits...

Lightsaber...not sure exactly how we should rock this.  Not a common thing I've ever dealt with...if I remember right, it was discussed earlier to put this in the mandatory reqs.  I get it...but w/ the line about local laws...I think it just sounds better to leave that out and move it to optional.

Is there anything else we can type up about the lightsaber description?  Again, I have no idea how typical sabers from SLD or TFE are written.

E-11...standard issue unless anything special was noticed in panels.  For this (and any other weapon)...being optional...I'm ok including whatever weapons any version uses like most of our other CRLs.

 

Lightsaber

• The lightsaber is accurate to what is shown in the illustrations within "Star Wars by Marvel Comics (2018) - Issue #59.
• The lightsaber is only included as long as it's in compliance with the applicant’s local laws.

 

E-11 Blaster (Optional)

• Manufactured by BlasTech Industries, the E-11 is standard-issue for many Imperial troops. Light, compact yet powerful, the E-11 blaster is always in high demand throughout the galaxy.
• Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Folding stock.
• Stock does not need to function.
• A real or replica ammo counter - based off of a Hengstler counter - should be present.
• D-ring mounted on the rear.
• Correct style scope.
• Two power cylinders on the magazine.
• Scratch-built, resin cast, Hyperfirm rubber cast blasters should have a total of 6 t-racks on blaster (leaving the lowest row on the Hengstler side un-covered).
• If using the Hasbro E11 toy blaster, it is modified to have the correct number of T-tracks (6 total), with a lower row of open vent holes on the magazine housing side.
• This is accomplished by covering the pre-existing rows of holes with T-tracks, then grinding off the lower integrated T-track on the magazine housing side, and drilling a new row of holes in its place.

The way you have it worded in there is almost identical to what is in the SLD with Vader, for example: https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:SL_rotj_vader

I think it is an integral part of the costume, very much like how Vader wears his when not in use. There shouldn't be any issues making it a required component but contingent on local laws at the GML discretion.

I also agree with the standard E-11 text!

2 hours ago, darthRivera said:

This should be sufficient.  we could add:  The metal has a chrome appearance, main hilt and hand grip are black in color.  For Lv2 the lightsaber has a green colored blade. I don't know, things like that.

I'm all for in the basic requirements to add a little extra information underneath the text about it needing to be accurate to the respective comic issue. Again, that is something that is done in the above example where I link the ROTJ Vader costume. We should add "The blades are not a required component." at the end of the L1 details, similar to what is done with the Kylo CRL.

I only checked one of the TFE CRLs with Ventress and in L1 it states: "If the lightsabers have blades, the blades are red in color." I'd personally keep that line in the L1 details and not put it under L2, as it'll eliminate any confusion with required components and local laws. For example, we just had a discussion about requiring weapons for L2 and I think if we have the chance we should eliminate any doubt with this CRL.

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

So the hilt is required basically?

Ultimately I will roll w whatever…esp w what other dets have laid out before…just trying to make it make sense to me lol…for it to be required but not really which then makes it…optional (?). I dunno.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

51 minutes ago, RAIDER said:

So the hilt is required basically?

Ultimately I will roll w whatever…esp w what other dets have laid out before…just trying to make it make sense to me lol…for it to be required but not really which then makes it…optional (?). I dunno.

Yeah just the hilt is what was required, which I haven't heard of any places not allowing the hilt or interpreting it as a weapon but I guess somewhere some place did at some point. I can see if you had the blade attached but not sure how the hilt could be considered a prop weapon or as a weapon. The only reason I even suggest that bit about the local laws is because it is in the SLD and TFE detachments, however, in the CTD and FISD there are lightsaber accessories that are in the optional category, for both Commander Cody and the TK Commander & TK Incinerator, respectively. So I see why we could also use the optional.

I guess it really boils down to is how much we interpret it as essential to the costume for the look of the costume.
 

@nanotek what is the DL's take on this? We need some additional input on this because I'm as torn as the rest.

 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

15 hours ago, RAIDER said:

Lightsaber

• The lightsaber is accurate to what is shown in the illustrations within "Star Wars by Marvel Comics (2018) - Issue #59.
• The lightsaber is only included as long as it's in compliance with the applicant’s local laws.

I think this is good, but I also think you should mention something about the blade being green if it is going to be used as it is a key difference from the Sith Lords. Make sure the L2 meets some of the same standards as the other CRL's in terms of high quality replica maybe?

In answer to the question, if the lightsaber is a prominent feature of the costume and is visible most of the time (which I believe it is), then it is a requirement.

 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Here is the text that I will post in the 1st page if we are good. I modified the stuff in light orange:

Lightsaber

• The lightsaber is accurate to what is shown in the illustrations within "Star Wars by Marvel Comics (2018) - Issue #59.
• Main hilt and hand grip are black in color.
• If the lightsaber has a blade, the blade is green in color.
• The lightsaber should only be required as long as it's in compliance with the applicant’s local laws.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Reflects 1:1 scale in size and appears to be of metal or chrome stock.

-----------------------------------------------

E-11 Blaster (Optional)

Manufactured by BlasTech Industries, the E-11 is standard-issue for many Imperial troops. Light, compact yet powerful, the E-11 blaster is always in high demand throughout the galaxy.

• Based on a real or replica Sterling sub-machine gun, scratch-built, or a modified commercial toy Stormtrooper blaster.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Folding stock.
  • Stock does not need to function.
• A real or replica ammo counter - based off of a Hengstler counter - should be present.
• D-ring mounted on the rear.
• Correct style scope.
• Two power cylinders on the magazine.
• Scratch-built, resin cast, Hyperfirm rubber cast blasters should have a total of 6 t-racks on blaster (leaving the lowest row on the Hengstler side un-covered).
• If using the Hasbro E11 toy blaster, it is modified to have the correct number of T-tracks (6 total), with a lower row of open vent holes on the magazine housing side.
  • This is accomplished by covering the pre-existing rows of holes with T-tracks, then grinding off the lower integrated T-track on the magazine housing side, and drilling a new row of holes in its place.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Just to post the update here for the rest of the membership to see, we are currently working on getting the proper pics uploaded to the drive so that we can start editing the CRL pics. We are also going to request the CRL to be built within the main CRL pages so that when we have the pics we are good to go.

Just giving you a heads up here as well @ionicdesign

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

The CRL page has been completed with text and images. It is being sent for final review and publishing.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

In going through the review @nanotek and I had a discussion about enhancing the details and clarify for certain parts of the abdomen armor. Mainly there were 2 things:

1. The outer two abdomen armor lines that line up with the chest angle more diagonally rather than vertical so that we don't end up with lines that are straight up and down for each of them. Only the center line should be straight up and down vertically.
2. The rectangular blocks on the abdomen armor we are taking a look at if we add rectangular armor plates instead of just calling them white rectangles.

[darthRivera[TX]]

13 minutes ago, IcyTrooper said:

In going through the review @nanotek and I had a discussion about enhancing the details and clarify for certain parts of the abdomen armor. Mainly there were 2 things:

1. The outer two abdomen armor lines that line up with the chest angle more diagonally rather than vertical so that we don't end up with lines that are straight up and down for each of them. Only the center line should be straight up and down vertically.
2. The rectangular blocks on the abdomen armor we are taking a look at if we add rectangular armor plates instead of just calling them white rectangles.

Sounds good to me.

Are you going to include that in the CRL before publishing it?

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

Good morning team

I missed a couple of things when we were discussing the abdomen/cod from earlier. There is one major thing that jumped out at me that I would like to open up for discussion

The cod and abdomen are separate pieces as shown by this panel. The area circled shows the cod lifting away from the abdomen/thigh and the rectangular box highlights how the cod is no longer aligned with the abdomen (due to the twist in the body) indicating that this is a separate piece.

I have highlighted the cod/abdomen text for discussion in red, and some proposed text in yellow. The white lines could use some simplification. For some reason my brain can calculate some things but not others.

Abdomen Armor

• The abdomen and cod piece are combined/fused to a single plate/one piece.
• Cod piece is white in color.
• The abdomen is black in color.
• There are 3 white lines, one vertical up the centre with a diagonal line on each side. The distance between the vertical and diagonal lines is smallest where the abdomen meets the cod and extend diagonally to align with the recessed lines of the chest armor.
• 2 rectangular armour plates on each side of the abdomen approximately 3/32"-1/8" (3-4mm) thick
• There are no visible snaps or rivets.
• Abdomen armor must match in-comic references.

 

[darthRivera[TX]]

12 minutes ago, nanotek said:

The cod and abdomen are separate pieces as shown by this panel. The area circled shows the cod lifting away from the abdomen/thigh and the rectangular box highlights how the cod is no longer aligned with the abdomen (due to the twist in the body) indicating that this is a separate piece.

And if that area points to the circle, is it just the shadow of the belt? 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

38 minutes ago, nanotek said:

Good morning team

I missed a couple of things when we were discussing the abdomen/cod from earlier. There is one major thing that jumped out at me that I would like to open up for discussion

The cod and abdomen are separate pieces as shown by this panel. The area circled shows the cod lifting away from the abdomen/thigh and the rectangular box highlights how the cod is no longer aligned with the abdomen (due to the twist in the body) indicating that this is a separate piece.

I have highlighted the cod/abdomen text for discussion in red, and some proposed text in yellow. The white lines could use some simplification. For some reason my brain can calculate some things but not others.

Abdomen Armor

• The abdomen and cod piece are combined/fused to a single plate/one piece.
• Cod piece is white in color.
• The abdomen is black in color.
• There are 3 white lines, one vertical up the centre with a diagonal line on each side. The distance between the vertical and diagonal lines is smallest where the abdomen meets the cod and extend diagonally to align with the recessed lines of the chest armor.
• 2 rectangular armour plates on each side of the abdomen approximately 3/32"-1/8" (3-4mm) thick
• There are no visible snaps or rivets.
• Abdomen armor must match in-comic references.

 

I thought (and my wires may be crossed w Cav), that the split ab/cod would be an L2 requirement.

Cod is white.

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

1 hour ago, RAIDER said:

I thought (and my wires may be crossed w Cav), that the split ab/cod would be an L2 requirement.

Cod is white.

I guess I’m more interested in why it’s a level 2 requirement if it can be clearly seen as a separate piece?
 

If it is a separate piece the two points highlighted red would be moved. Not contesting that the white part is wrong. 

1 hour ago, darthRivera said:

And if that area points to the circle, is it just the shadow of the belt? 

To me the way it is drawn is that it is slightly overlapping the thigh and the very edge of the cod extends well away from the abdomen (circled). There is some very subtle shading of the belt on the cod also. 
 

To me the abdomen is almost like they removed the armour plate and exposed the under-suit (ie there is no abdomen) and added some additional armour plating on the sides (rectangular armour)

 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I think we may have done it as a L2 for inclusion across the basic level, but I honestly can't remember. I know that some members do separate the ab and cod on regular kits if they are very tall or short in order to make it look like it fits better.

I don't think it is a very visible difference in the kit and thus the reason for L2. You can't make that out from a casual look but someone who is very into the detail would notice it.

[RAIDER[COTG]]

32 minutes ago, nanotek said:

I guess I’m more interested in why it’s a level 2 requirement if it can be clearly seen as a separate piece?
 

If it is a separate piece the two points highlighted red would be moved. Not contesting that the white part is wrong. 

To me the way it is drawn is that it is slightly overlapping the thigh and the very edge of the cod extends well away from the abdomen (circled). There is some very subtle shading of the belt on the cod also. 
 

To me the abdomen is almost like they removed the armour plate and exposed the under-suit (ie there is no abdomen) and added some additional armour plating on the sides (rectangular armour)

 

its seen in that panel BUT it wont be seen in a normal costume suit up cuz 99% of the time itll be covered by the canvas belt.  kreel wont be doing any jumping like in that panel in real life im betting lol…and no trooper should be required to show a gml an internal shot showing the split beneath the belt

i kid kinda but thats really what the L2 boils down to

ps…we did discuss the ab possibly being a soft good but in the discussion it was determined there was no definitive way to 100% say that in the art…and so we left it as a hard armor part.  keep in mind as panel to panel consistency is difficult enough as it is, CRLs for comic characters tend to get waaaay more flex than a on-screen characters

[darthRivera[TX]]

8 minutes ago, RAIDER said:

its seen in that panel BUT it wont be seen in a normal costume suit up cuz 99% of the time itll be covered by the canvas belt.  kreel wont be doing any jumping like in that panel in real life im betting lol…and no trooper should be required to show a gml an internal shot showing the split beneath the belt

i kid kinda but thats really what the L2 boils down to

I agree with you. 

If I separate the ab and cod from my suit, and take pictures, it will look exactly the same as it is right now.

 

Something similar happens with realistic clonetrooper armors

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

We all agree on changing the verbiage for the raised rectangular sections on the ab plate, though? I think it is a good idea to have a measurement there and change the wording.

[darthRivera[TX]]

30 minutes ago, IcyTrooper said:

measurement

105mm x 45mm x 8mm

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Here is what we have now (yellow are the changes):

Abdomen Armor

• The abdomen and cod piece may combined/fused to a single plate/one piece or separate.
• Cod piece is white in color.
• The abdomen is black in color.
• There are three white lines, one vertical up the center with a diagonal line on each side. The distance between the vertical and diagonal lines is smallest where the abdomen meets the cod and extend diagonally to align with the recessed lines of the chest armor.
• There are two rectangular armor plates on each side of the abdomen approximately 3/32" to 1/8" (3-4mm) thick. The dimensions of each of the armor plates is approximately 4" x 1.75" x 0.30" (105mm x 45mm x 8mm).
• There are no visible snaps or rivets.
• Abdomen armor must match in-comic references.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• The cod piece is separate from the abdomen armor.
• There should be no gap between the ab and kidney plate, a single visible seam line is ideal. Any gap between the abdomen and kidney armor shall be no more than 1/2” (12.5mm). Any shims used to achieve this effect shall have a similar material and color as with the abdomen and kidney armor. Shims should be flush and seams are allowed.

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

2 hours ago, RAIDER said:

its seen in that panel BUT it wont be seen in a normal costume suit up cuz 99% of the time itll be covered by the canvas belt.  kreel wont be doing any jumping like in that panel in real life im betting lol…and no trooper should be required to show a gml an internal shot showing the split beneath the belt

i kid kinda but thats really what the L2 boils down to

ps…we did discuss the ab possibly being a soft good but in the discussion it was determined there was no definitive way to 100% say that in the art…and so we left it as a hard armor part.  keep in mind as panel to panel consistency is difficult enough as it is, CRLs for comic characters tend to get waaaay more flex than a on-screen characters

Looking at the abdomen section I would be more inclined to think it was soft material over hard armour. Stylistically in comics if something has a hard surface you would see some kind of sheen, and often materials with a porous surface will be flat. The higher the gloss, the whiter the sheen. In this comic I see some materials have a sheen like the black straps around the forearms or legs, but consistently nothing on the abdomen (similar to the under-suit sections). Sometimes lighter colour is applied to black sections to denote crumpled up material like the inside elbows. This is my interpretation of what I can see... so then:

If we go by the logic of "no definitive way to 100% tell..." then shouldn't both options be offered to empower future builders to make their own choice? If we have a soft abdomen then we would have a separate codpiece as well. 

To your point of showing a split beneath the belt: I get what you are saying, but I don't think it matters if you show them as separate pieces in a CRL. We have no way of telling if the Death Trooper's cod is separate from the abdomen, yet we still show them as separate pieces as is the same with many other costumes.

At the end of the day it's up to the majority to come to an agreement, I totally get what you are all saying, I'm not saying you're wrong, I am trying to allow for this to be as flexible and clear as possible based on what I can see.

When I looked at this with a fresh set of eyes - references, CRL text etc - I had questions, just throwing em up for discussion.

 

 

[darthRivera[TX]]

In my opinion I do not see anything that indicates that the ab is made of soft material.

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Quote

 

If we go by the logic of "no definitive way to 100% tell..." then shouldn't both options be offered to empower future builders to make their own choice? If we have a soft abdomen then we would have a separate codpiece as well. 

If you look at other issues outside of this arc, you see the same characters doing twisting and contorting and the art clearly shows folds and bends.  In this arc it doesnt…and in every arc there are clear differences to show how the armor has evolved/changed.  So yea you’re right the logic cuts both ways…but maybe Im applying it differently cuz i  some arcs it’s definitive and in others its not (so definitively not? lol).  Im sticking w that haha

For me at least this was one of the delineations to distinguish the variations of the costume among each story arc…art definitively shows folds and bends in some arcs…here it definitively doesnt leading to the hard armor lean. (fwiw I dont disagree w the doubt…we brought it up and im even having an alternate soft part made for my Cav build for kicks giggles and if I decide to do another variant that clearly shows the folds/bends).

Quote

To your point of showing a split beneath the belt: I get what you are saying, but I don't think it matters if you show them as separate pieces in a CRL. We have no way of telling if the Death Trooper's cod is separate from the abdomen, yet we still show them as separate pieces as is the same with many other costumes.

With TK style costumes though the cod/ab connection can go both ways…and speaking for builder flexibility…it seems to make sense to allow a fused piece at L1 for anyone making a kit conversion (though Id personally split it).

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

 

8 hours ago, darthRivera said:

In my opinion I do not see anything that indicates that the ab is made of soft material.

Likewise I am the opposite, I don't see anything that indicates it is hard.  

Thanks for your insight @RAIDER and entertaining my questions. I guess question still remains, is the abdomen a separate distinguishable part, or can you go the under-suit route with pieces armor on the sides?

I have one extra question about the second L2 bullet point, I assume that this only applies if you decided to go the hard abdomen route? Ignore if we are saying that the abdomen is a separate armour part.

• There should be no gap between the ab and kidney plate, a single visible seam line is ideal. Any gap between the abdomen and kidney armor shall be no more than 1/2” (12.5mm). Any shims used to achieve this effect shall have a similar material and color as with the abdomen and kidney armor. Shims should be flush and seams are allowed.

BTW I'd like to also say thanks to you all, you guys have done a great job and the costume looks great. 

[darthRivera[TX]]

1 hour ago, nanotek said:

I have one extra question about the second L2 bullet point, I assume that this only applies if you decided to go the hard abdomen route? Ignore if we are saying that the abdomen is a separate armour part.

• There should be no gap between the ab and kidney plate, a single visible seam line is ideal. Any gap between the abdomen and kidney armor shall be no more than 1/2” (12.5mm). Any shims used to achieve this effect shall have a similar material and color as with the abdomen and kidney armor. Shims should be flush and seams are allowed.

This is one of the reasons I think the ab is hard armor.

In my opinion it makes no sense to have a kidney plate and ab with soft material.  Thinking about the character, it would be a weak point for him.  And thinking about reality, the suit would not look very good.

If there was no kidney plate, as in other versions of the character, it would be very different, I would buy the idea that it is soft material.

But again, it's just my opinion.

 

To follow the standards, and knowing this armor is a TK armor.  it would be good to maintain that requirement.