Proposed CRL Edit - Inferno Squad: Del Meeko

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I'll get this thread started for Del Meeko CRL edit discussion that was started on June 21st.

[TX-20113[501st]]

Hey there. I want to request a rewording and addition of more specific infos about the flight suit material, because i and @Wingman (the Inferno squad DCA of the JRS) had lots of discussions with others about the suits material. We agreed that we need a little rewording in all the Inferno CRLs. The simple "...must be made out of canvas or similar heavy material" isn't enough to explain the clearly visible texture of the game's flight suit. Yes, it's clear and tight that it might be canvas, but there are heavy and light types of canvas fabric. We (the DCAs of both Detachments, incl. @tipperaryred) think that we should reword it like "... made out of canvas or any similar textured material", because that would leave the freedom of choosing any other material which has a similar texture as canvas has. 

Also we have been thinking about checking the best vendors to ask them for possible similar textured fabrics and them to the text. 

 

We could also add some high quality screenshots of the game's texture to help the people with choosing an accurate fabric

 

here's what the crl currently tells

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

So to clarify, we need to ensure we provide better CRL guidance as to the textured nature of the Inferno flightsuit. So we're looking at:

1) Better wording, including whether there is a technical tailoring term for that kind of texture.

2) Some sample images, perhaps including both an in game screenshot and a real life example photo?

3) A decision on whether this is for basic or Specialist approval.

Does that cover it?

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

A close up look of the texture (with and without flash) on the NerDIY Inferno flightsuit, for which the material is described as "Oxford weave canvas". I can check with Michelle to see if there is an even more exact description.

If you can get some similar shots of the Jim Tripon suit @TX-20113 , it would be interesting to compare? Same goes for any flightsuits for any other vendors that seem accurate.

[TX-20113[501st]]

Yes, sure. 

 

But to be honest. I got my suit from Jim in 2019 and that means that the red and black stripes are not made out of the suit's material. 

 

So, not really accurate anymore.

 

The material of jim's suit is also described as Oxford/duckwave canvas

 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Just re-reading the wider text to see if anything else is worth revisiting while we're at it.

Small typo in the section about the vest's tri-glides? Talks about "3S model" which I'm guessing is supposed to be 3D?

The armour section refers to a front plate, a back plate, and the a "third plate" that bridges the two under the arm. Might it be worth rewording this to "two side plates" in case it causes confusion that it is one single plate that joins both the right and left?

 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

So a close up of both NerDIY and Jim Tripon flightsuit materials above, both described as Oxford weave canvas. Adjusting for scale, I'd say they actually look very similar to my eye, and certainly a decent real world example of the in-game texture. What do you think @TX-20113

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

"Duck Cloth or often simply “Duck” is often confused with canvas. Canvas is woven out of very heavy yarns and therefore has a course surface, while duck instead uses finer threads that have been spun into medium/heavyweight yarns and are then tightly woven together for a material with a smooth surface and a high thread count."

So duck weave and Oxford weave (canvas) aren't the same, so we'll need to check which one Jim uses. Canvas is described as using heavier yarns with a much more obvious texture, while duck weave (duck cloth) tends to look a lot smoother.

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

I heard back from Michelle at NerDIY and she confirmed that her material is oxford weave canvas.  Essentially, each little "square" is made up of two heavy horizontal threads side by side, which are then crossed over by two heavy vertical threads side by side.  That's where the visible texture comes from.

However, just as importantly, she notes that many manufacturers and retailers do not accurately label their textiles, so it can be a lottery what you receive.  Michelle had to order in a lot of test samples before she found one that was suitable for this particular flight suit.  So the bigger concern is that it looks right, not the name that any retailer, manufacturer or tailor chooses to give it!

So yes, I'd agree with @TX-20113that we should go with:

"should be made from an oxford weave canvas, or similarly textured material".

Is there enough evidence available that we should make "oxford weave canvas" a requirement for L2?

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

This is the diagram that Michelle sent on explaining the Oxford weave.  To me, it looks like a good match to what we're looking for in texture:

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

If we leave in "or other similar weave canvas " this will be the case that GMLs will be approving suits that are made of regular twill or duck, which oxford weave is not. Im leery of straying outside of oxford weave canvas as the description, so that we dont suits made of regular fabric being approved.  Just in the last couple of years the makers have updated their fabrics based on the research here as well as their own onging research, but makers will make it out of whatever is cheapest if they can sell suits to the unsuspecting who dont know the material differences. 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Very fair point David.  I was kind of forgetting that we're talking about a relatively small number of people actually making these suits at the end of the day.  I agree that anything we can do towards pushing them towards greater accuracy should be a priority.

The only potential headache would be GMLs scratching their heads over what is or is not Oxford weave.  Michelle made the point that some suppliers don't even mention the weave in the product description, while others will call it one weave when it's actually something else entirely.  Anton said that even Jim Tripon's suit (for which the material does seem accurate) was described as being Oxford/duckweave canvas - when the two are completely different.

Only so much we can do ourselves though, so do we go with Oxford weave only and hope that influences enough makers that the GMLs don't get too bothered by it?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I totally agree, and I dont see it as a case of boxing anyone in, its a case of, "you have chosen this path, and this is the way". 

Michelle is right, sometimes I look at oxford weave and I have a hard time differentiating it from the backside of duck cloth. I have bought a LOT of duck cloth, and its not always woven the same, but the oxford weave canvas is going to have a much different hand than canvas. You can tell by looking at it when its made into whatever you make it into .  Overall its not going to be anywere near as popular as a Reserve Pilot/ crewman, but for those doing this, they need to do it correctly just as any Fett builder has to do it right. 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Good stuff. @TX-20113 are you ok with that proposed change Anton?

[TX-20113[501st]]

The point is that we don't know which material they use in a galaxy far far away. We can only compare to what we have in our galaxy. I would stay with what we are seeing. Of course it depends on the how it's woven, but usually canvas looks lile that kind of canvas i know. I have a bag made of canvas (there was no more describtion about the material when i bougt it) and well, it looks so much like what we are seeing in the game. I would say "It must be made out of heavy woven canvas or similarly textured fabric". Because we can only guess whats the material. So we are forced to call it "accurate" as soon as it looks like it does in the game. A Level 2 option alsp doesn't make sense to me. Because it is so clearly visible that even in a basic costume it can't be ignored.

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

I suppose we could break it down this way, we've got three different audiences for this:

1) Members/builders - 99% of the time they're just going to have to trust their supplier when they tell them something matches a CRL.

2) Suppliers/tailors - it makes sense to give them an accurate example, because as David said, many will go with a cheaper and less accurate fabric every time if they can get away with it. If we say "heavy woven canvas" or "Oxford weave canvas" and a tailor advertises that they are using that, a builder can be confident that it's accurate. It's the same reason the CRLs insist all armour be made from fibreglass, HIPS or ABS, even though obviously none of these exist in the Star Wars universe either.

3) GMLs - I'd agree with Anton that it's only the "look" they're going to care about. With the quality of clearance photos they're often working with, the types of weave will often be virtually impossible to tell apart.

What about:

"made of a heavy woven fabric with visible texture, such as Oxford weave canvas"?

It gives a bit of latitude, but at the same time gives tailors and suppliers the incentive to go with Oxford weave as it's the only one specifically named as looking accurate. If we find another similar fabric later, there's nothing stopping us adding that to the CRL as another example.  Makes it simpler for everyone?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I am more in line with the "with visible texture" since thats what we would see. I work at a airport and I see a LOT of handbags, and some are clearly heavy woven canvas, because even at twenty feet I can see the texture. 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I'd be more in light to allow latitude for L1 and pin down accuracy for L2, in which we'd have jurisdiction over it and know what is good.

When we get to the part where we start finalizing text to update make sure to copy the entire section from the CRL that is being changed and use different color to show what is added/modified/removed, etc.