Possible Imperial Army Detachment

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

Hi all

I have been hearing about discussion about Imperial Army should have its own detachment and it has since branched off  into several discussions. 
 

Some of the ideas discussed have been as follows:

1. Create new detachment

2. Create Detachment Squads

3. Move Imperial Army to IOC

I know a lot of people don’t really bother with the main forums and I feel like there have been a lot of discussions outside of the detachment where the Imperial Army resides, so want to extend the opportunity to you here to discuss freely. 
 

We took the Imperial Army when no one else wanted to, and have been proud to watch it grow. The formation of a separate detachment has been discussed before but at the time no one had the appetite to follow through. Maybe now there is enough people, time and money to attempt a project of this size. 
 

It is likely that any of the options above will require a huge amount of work. The Detachment Squad idea would probably represent the least amount of work with the formation of a new detachment being the most. 
 

If there is enough appetite amongst Imperial Army members we can put it to a formal vote and give some weight to the larger discussion. But I really want to hear from the membership and will support you 100%

 

[Heavy[CMD-DCA]]

With Andor showing new army costumes, I have no doubt that an Imp. Army detachment perhaps could be the way forward, though I also like the idea of detachment squads - I am open to both and would like to offer my help if needed. 

Moving us to IOC ?  no, it wouldn´t feel like the right place for the costumes.  Already a member of IOC, so it has nothing to do with the detachment ? 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Fully agree that whatever decisions are made, those with existing IAT clearances need to be listened to above and beyond anyone or anything else. Certainly more so than considerations over how merch run allowances will be impacted, or other random elements I've read elsewhere.

So it will be great to see the views of our cleared members, and I have no doubt our staff will stand ready to support our members with whatever they choose.

[jaehy[TX]]

I don't think expanding on an already unbalanced and wierd system for sorting costume like the Detachments is such a great idea. Sub units might be the way to go but could we not come up with a better name then using "Squads" agian, like for the third time (Garrisons have Squads and the JRS sub-groups are Squadrons) Call them Regiments, Corps, Battalions or Divisions, or any number of other great unit names or all of them depending on the Detachment they fall under.
I love the 501st and Starwars and Cosplaying but I honeslty feel like we are stuck in an unwieldy system that those who came up with it could never have imagined it would be used as it is today. We could do so much better as a Fan organization then what we have.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

As one of the early-on troops who got a TX designation with an Army uniform, this is a near and dear topic to me.  The Imperial Army continues to grow, and will continue to do so as long as we have easy to wear/ easy to build uniforms like the IAT and IAE.  We have a significant amount of troopers joining the Army ranks, who are now making Spec Ops their home. When the Imperial Army was first standing up there was the attempt to create a new Det, but it lacked support. Not so much a lack of vision, but it did lack support.  I have some of the original, first and completely unofficial "merch" that was created from that endeavor. The creation of a new Det is no simple task, and it requires a trained staff, with at least SOME experience running a Det, running a website, and interacting with Command.  I'm sure we have Army troopers with those qualifications.  

Currently we are all grouped together with the same TX designation, like TKs and TI's pretty much have the same. The Armored Cavalry has different designations for their different troopers, TA , IS and CX.   Perhaps, one way to begin to show a bit of differentiation (without physical separation) would be the creation of a new designation, IA. We know IS stands for Imperial Soldier, not that much different than the IAT. West End Games had these characters as canon fodder, and they wore the same coveralls , googles helmets and gloves as our IS classification walker driver.  

I am certainly not opposed to Jason's idea, and Im sure it has already been used in other Dets.  I thought that the IGC was, but I just checked and it is not broken down that way.  I would tend to not use Corps, since we have IOC and IGC already; breaking the Army and Mudtroopers into something like a Batallion (each) as a working unit within SpecOps as an administrative group only might be possible, if the troopers are behind it. Merch is not a consideration as I see it.  

 

Those are my thoughts on this. Its a topic that came up early, died off, and has recently resurfaced outside of this forum. 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Blackwatch
text change to clarify

[Beau Thacker[TX]]

I know I'm new, but with the Spec Ops I have always thought of making a detachment, of Army Troopers, one reason I opt for Lieutenant Sunber as a character. 

I myself am not opposed to Jason's idea either, and I like the idea of detachments. 

[Scotoe[TX]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

As one of the early-on troops who got a TX designation with an Army uniform, this is a near and dear topic to me.  The Imperial Army continues to grow, and will continue to do so as long as we have easy to wear/ easy to build uniforms like the IAT and IAE.  We have a significant amount of troopers joining the Army ranks, who are now making Spec Ops their home. When the Imperial Army was first standing up there was the attempt to create a new Det, but it lacked support. Not so much a lack of vision, but it did lack support.  I have some of the original, first and completely unofficial "merch" that was created from that endeavor. The creation of a new Det is no simple task, and it requires a trained staff, with at least SOME experience running a Det, running a website, and interacting with Command.  I'm sure we have Army troopers with those qualifications.  

Currently we are all grouped together with the same TX designation, like TKs and TI's pretty much have the same. The Armored Cavalry has different designations for their different troopers, TA , IS and CX.   Perhaps, one way to begin to show a bit of differentiation (without physical separation) would be the creation of a new designation, IA. We know IS stands for Imperial Soldier, not that much different than the IAT. West End Games had these characters as canon fodder, and they wore the same coveralls , googles helmets and gloves as our IS classification walker driver.  

I am certainly not opposed to Jason's idea, and Im sure it has already been used in other Dets.  I thought that the IGC was, but I just checked and it is not broken down that way.  I would tend to not use Corps, since we have IOC and IGC already; breaking the Army and Mudtroopers into something like a Batallion (each) as a working unit within SpecOps as an administrative group only might be possible, if the troopers are behind it. Merch is not a consideration as I see it.  

 

Those are my thoughts on this. Its a topic that came up early, died off, and has recently resurfaced outside of this forum. 

 

I'm new here as well with a newly finished Death Trooper.  I like this idea, BHG does the same thing with their Mandalorian Warriors.  I guess one thing we could consider is having Spec Ops evolve into this "New Detachment".  Those "special forces/special operations" costumes continue as TX under a larger Imperial Army Detachment like rename of Spec Ops.  Granted, it doesn't need to be called "Imperial Army Detachment" it could be something else that would be more inclusive than Spec Ops.   ?‍♂️  

[SirCalcium[TX]]

Working on an IAT (hope to get it done soon). The idea of doing the detachment squad sounds like a more logical step which could then lead to becoming a new detachment. I think there needs to be more Imperial Army/Mudtrooper style costume, and members before going into full new detachment.

I'm for the idea of calling the unit division, battalion or corp rather than squad, along with using something like IA as opposed to TX 

[pm07[TX]]

"Create Detachment Squads"

This right here, for now. 

Keep it under Spec Ops now until there are enough approved members/interest/whatever to start looking at a separate detachment.
Plus we have to consider the armored troopers. 1/2 armor , like the Muddies stay in the IAT detachment or would they go to FISD? Different armor level?  So much stuff to consider. 

We don't need to be in the IOC, as they are specifically Sergeants and Corporals so far named in the series.  I have nothing against the IOC I'm a member, but again they are Officers. 

On the Andor subject, I am super super digging the Imp Army Uniforms and that long boy E-11   

 

[pm07[TX]]

On 10/10/2022 at 6:49 AM, jaehy said:

I don't think expanding on an already unbalanced and wierd system for sorting costume like the Detachments is such a great idea. Sub units might be the way to go but could we not come up with a better name then using "Squads" agian, like for the third time (Garrisons have Squads and the JRS sub-groups are Squadrons) Call them Regiments, Corps, Battalions or Divisions, or any number of other great unit names or all of them depending on the Detachment they fall under.
I love the 501st and Starwars and Cosplaying but I honeslty feel like we are stuck in an unwieldy system that those who came up with it could never have imagined it would be used as it is today. We could do so much better as a Fan organization then what we have.

Oohh.great point there..I never even considered that.  How about Imperial Army Detachment Platoons?   Covers Infantry and Sapper/Engineers   

[pm07[TX]]

22 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

As one of the early-on troops who got a TX designation with an Army uniform, this is a near and dear topic to me.  The Imperial Army continues to grow, and will continue to do so as long as we have easy to wear/ easy to build uniforms like the IAT and IAE.  We have a significant amount of troopers joining the Army ranks, who are now making Spec Ops their home. When the Imperial Army was first standing up there was the attempt to create a new Det, but it lacked support. Not so much a lack of vision, but it did lack support.  I have some of the original, first and completely unofficial "merch" that was created from that endeavor. The creation of a new Det is no simple task, and it requires a trained staff, with at least SOME experience running a Det, running a website, and interacting with Command.  I'm sure we have Army troopers with those qualifications.  

Currently we are all grouped together with the same TX designation, like TKs and TI's pretty much have the same. The Armored Cavalry has different designations for their different troopers, TA , IS and CX.   Perhaps, one way to begin to show a bit of differentiation (without physical separation) would be the creation of a new designation, IA. We know IS stands for Imperial Soldier, not that much different than the IAT. West End Games had these characters as canon fodder, and they wore the same coveralls , googles helmets and gloves as our IS classification walker driver.  

I am certainly not opposed to Jason's idea, and Im sure it has already been used in other Dets.  I thought that the IGC was, but I just checked and it is not broken down that way.  I would tend to not use Corps, since we have IOC and IGC already; breaking the Army and Mudtroopers into something like a Batallion (each) as a working unit within SpecOps as an administrative group only might be possible, if the troopers are behind it. Merch is not a consideration as I see it.  

 

Those are my thoughts on this. Its a topic that came up early, died off, and has recently resurfaced outside of this forum. 

 

I like the 'IA' prefix designation for sure.  It covers both the IAT and IAE/Sappers, Muddies.  

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

It seems we are in agreement (so far) to remain in Spec Ops, until such time that we become large enough, and well-trained enough to form such a Detachment. To that end, more Army troopers will need to begin to volunteer to take on roles within this community (or others ) to get that training on how the Legion and Detachments work on the inside, away from the public view that we see here. 

 I just recently became aware of the Mandolorian Warriors as part of BHG, we just got our first MW here last month. I didn't even realize she had a Legion ID when she did an event with us. New designations do not exactly come along every day in the Legion, so thats a stepstone. 

[Chaos[CMD-DCA]]

I have been following the conversation over in the Council forums. From a military perspective (of which I have many many years’ experience) Many off shoots of the military's branches or specialized units have been formed out of a need for Command and Control. Looking at the history of the Imperial Troopers first seen in Solo and knowing that no other Detachment wanted to take them, we took them under our wing so to speak. I think as this progresses further we should have oversight until a satisfactory outcome can be arranged. Initially we gave them guidance and purpose and fostered recruitment. I have read many comments that some believe IA should not have been placed under Spec Ops, but in actuality, specialty jobs such as SAPPERS, Combat Engineers etc., were formed as "Specialized Entities" and they were few in numbers and spread out as "specialty support" troops for various operations that required their expertise. With that being said, it did make sense that they initially landed with us.

Now that they are becoming more of a "grunt type character" and in larger numbers, it may be time for them to have their own "home" like the TKs (they are basically the same but with armor) but how should that occur? In the real world when a sub-unit grew to a point that it required its own C&C, the originating service developed and implemented the transition. Just like Space Command is now its own branch, it had its origins in the Air Force, also the Air Force began its path as the Army Air Corp. So as the IAs transition to their own branch (Detachment, etc) they should be kept under our guidance until they are ready to stand on their own. 

I do not concur that they belong under the IOC, they do have "Officers" leading them, but they are not an Officer Corp, they are grunts. 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I will absolutely echo here that we will poll our detachment members on any transitions and thoughts about a separate detachment. Without our fantastic members who have cultivated the growth and development of these characters, they would not have otherwise existed.

I'm in no way opposed to a separate detachment, but it must be well thought out and developed with member input at every turn. With that being said, I'm going to remain a strong voice to keep IA discussions as they relate to the IA trooper, IA engineer, IA sapper and Lt Sunber developments under the Spec Ops detachment where they currently reside.

[Jankes[PR-CMD]]

Let me (despite my short internship in Legion and in Detachment) also speak on this matter.

In the above considerations, I see four solutions and I will refer to them directly.
1) Skipping "Spec. Ops. Det." and the creation of a new "Det." - I do not agree
2) Giving a different ID shortcut, instead of "TX" some other - I agree, although I consider it unnecessary
3) Transfer to IOC - I absolutely disagree
4) Establishing a subdivision in the existing structure - we all have our own section in the forum, where we are discussing it right now. I believe that this is our sanctuary and it is completely enough to exchange thoughts and opinions.

I notice a general disproportion in the Legion in the mutual treatment of each other by "Armored" and "others". The "armored" ones are obviously much more expensive, more complicated, and probably that's why they feel superior to the others.
As a researcher of military history, I know that in order for "elite units" to shine, they must have the support of these less exposed figures. Only together they testify to something.

[SpaceWelder[TX]]

My opinions below in no particular order or organization:

-A separate Detachment seems lofty for four costumes.

-I see the instinctual connection with the IOC officers and would be fine joining up with them, but to echo what others have said, that entire Det would have to be renamed to include the enlisted (Imperial Army Corps feels appropriate).

-Any sort of in-Det subdivision seems like needless organization to me.  As someone mentioned, we have a spot in this forum.  Seems plenty to me.

-Someone mentioned the division between armored and non-armored costumes.  I'll admit, looking at photos of shiny black armor next to shabby mud-olive grunts it's easy to feel "un-ceptional."  But from a business management perspective, the Det needs costumes at all skill levels and price points.  

-In summary, my personal/individual vote would be this 1-Remain Status Quo and change nothing, or 2-Transfer us to IOC and completely rebrand that Detachment (which I'm guessing they would be completely against)

[Ronan[TX]]

I know I rarely post, but I also support the move to IOC and rebrand them as a "Regular Army" detachment. Give them all the nonspec ops units. Real world examples is a SF Engineer vs Army Engineer. The SF engineer is has to pass Army basic &  any specialized school first then go on to SF Selection and then SF Engineer training.  Regular Engineer is just Army basic and then Engineer school (AIT) I know it would ruffle lots of egos, but aren't we just adults playing dress up anyway? I like multiple options for my dress up. I'm in multiple detachments as lots of you are. The only reason I even see a need for detachments is to organize the costumes better and share the load of approval. 

[izzi[TX]]

Hey fellow troopers,

Some of you may know me, to others I'm probably a new face. Work, school and kids have kept me busy the last few years. Thankfully, the awesome members from the past and present command check in on me.

Mark actually asked me to take a look and share my thoughts and some IA/Spec Ops history, as he knows in putting the finish on an Engineer to get back in the trooping game since my school is wrapping up this spring.

This is going to be a bit long-winded, so the TL;DR of it is: You're entitled to your own opinion, only read this if you want a peek behind the 501st curtain.

I was XO when the IA units were in development. I was over the development of the CRLs and the contact who "negotiated" directly with the LMOs for its approval.

Sebastian was the main mover and shaker for the units as a whole, and Blackwatch spearheaded the Engineer like someone lit his rear plastoid plate on fire. There is quite a bit of work when it comes to NEW costume approval. There's a ton of back and forth discussion, not only about what its chosen, but also why things are chosen. Concessions are usually made on all sides until the base if what is acceptable is created and the first costume is approved. 

Talking about the units themselves: IA troopers and engineers aren't "just grunts" as I've heard them called in some posts. These costumes are of troopers who are sent into hostile territory on the frontier of the Empire in order to build fortifications to allow for an Imperial foothold on planets that were most likely not even in Alliance territory. The engineers most notably are a special force who understands how to build and maintain specialized equipment in unforgiving environments for this purpose.

As for the costumes, as I understand it, the IA costumes were presented to one or two other detachments and turned down. Now this isn't always due detachments not liking the costume, often it's because when limited source material is viewed, detachments merely don't want to spend time and resources on "unapprovable" costumes. As I said above, approving a costume class is more than "Here's a picture. Looks good. Approved." Especially when sources deal with art that may change from panel to panel or artist to artist, and not just film captures and detailed computer models that stay more or less consistent.

This isn't a downfall of other detachments, however we're lucky that it's a strength of Spec Ops.  Spec Ops started with comics, RPG supplements and low resolution video game captures. We aren’t a detachment that says “You have your sources of what you want, now replicate it” we instead have always gone “If that’s what you want to build, let’s find what you need to get it approved.”  That is the reason why Spec Ops has such a diverse and large roster.

 

Here’s my thoughts:

I’ve been slowly building an Engineer hopefully I’ll join their ranks soon. Do I feel they fit in Spec Ops? Absolutely! Do I feel they could fit in their own detachment? Absolutely!  Do I think they’re a good fit for the IOC? No. The ACD would be a closer detachment costume-wise than IOC, but I still think it would be a mistake.

Here the IA costumes have experienced staff supporting them, that will help support addition to the costume class. A staff that has helped build and has already navigated the pitfalls of IA costumes. Is there much more that they can accomplish as their own detachment? Not really.

As for moving to another detachment, well it’s always more attractive to “welcome” other costumes when all the hard work is already completed. Welcoming and supporting a costume class are two different things. When your current Detachment has a huge success rate in getting a costume going, it doesn't make sense to jump. Also, jumping to another Det would probably destroy the option of breaking off as its own detachment later if that's what was desired.

IA Prefix - That talk was had with the LMOs at the time of creation, but it was basically said that all the prefixes are actually making things too confusing, as there are getting to be too many in the Legion. However now that the roster has grown, it may be worth revisiting.

If there is something more that IA members feel like they need, maybe bring it up to the Det Command staff and they can see how it can be accommodated?

I really don’t think a sub-detachment is the answer, but maybe giving IA members duties over the corresponding CRLs, Merchandise, forum moderation, is really what is needed.

My very long thoughts on the matter.

[Jankes[PR-CMD]]

3 hours ago, izzi said:

This isn't a downfall of other detachments, however we're lucky that it's a strength of Spec Ops.  Spec Ops started with comics, RPG supplements and low resolution video game captures. We aren’t a detachment that says “You have your sources of what you want, now replicate it” we instead have always gone “If that’s what you want to build, let’s find what you need to get it approved.”  That is the reason why Spec Ops has such a diverse and large roster.

I consider this a very important point. Special Operations Detachment gathers non-obvious characters whose sources are not commonly known in the public consciousness.
Every time I troop I have to explain what character this is, where it came from, that it only appears in three comics. Even members of the Legion, people with knowledge of Star Wars, are not familiar with the IA formation. The reason is simple - IA has not yet been screened. Mudtroopers are in a better position. It is only by the coincidence that a person was reading comics that he remembers "that something like that was there somewhere". Among my friends, at the moment, only one person sent me the cover of "To the last man" when he saw my character.
This is the strength of "Spec. Ops." - gathering characters from the deep depths of the SW universe in the squad.

[SpaceWelder[TX]]

I came back to bring up this point that @Jankes beat me to, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the real, distilled, down-to-brass-tacks heart and soul of SpecOps is that we are the haven for the expanded universe characters?  At face value we may seem like we are where every character-turned-gloss-black belongs, but that we pull from comics and video games and the unconventional places is really what makes us special.  Granted, as more and more characters become canon, more and more classifications will become apparent (such as the IA troops we are discussing now) but if we were to relinquish our status as THE place for misfit costumes, then we do become little more than the Gloss Black Detachment, no?

[Jankes[PR-CMD]]

2 minutes ago, SpaceWelder said:

I came back to bring up this point that @Jankes beat me to, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the real, distilled, down-to-brass-tacks heart and soul of SpecOps is that we are the haven for the expanded universe characters?  At face value we may seem like we are where every character-turned-gloss-black belongs, but that we pull from comics and video games and the unconventional places is really what makes us special.  Granted, as more and more characters become canon, more and more classifications will become apparent (such as the IA troops we are discussing now) but if we were to relinquish our status as THE place for misfit costumes, then we do become little more than the Gloss Black Detachment, no?

Complete agreement

[izzi[TX]]

2 hours ago, SpaceWelder said:

I came back to bring up this point that @Jankes beat me to, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the real, distilled, down-to-brass-tacks heart and soul of SpecOps is that we are the haven for the expanded universe characters?  At face value we may seem like we are where every character-turned-gloss-black belongs, but that we pull from comics and video games and the unconventional places is really what makes us special.  Granted, as more and more characters become canon, more and more classifications will become apparent (such as the IA troops we are discussing now) but if we were to relinquish our status as THE place for misfit costumes, then we do become little more than the Gloss Black Detachment, no?

Exactly. We were originally the home for ALL EU troopers, and only EU troopers. Our first face character didn't come around until General Weir appeared in the comics, because of his armor being a shadow scout variant. We also didn't have anything outside of the EU until the new trilogy happened, and it was determined that some of the screen costumes would be best served by our detachment.

[pm07[TX]]

So is anyone going to take a stab at the actual uniform specifics , material , cut wise?  I thought it looked a lot like the same material that was used for the ICAT but according to another 501st member who wore the Andor costume, its stretchy denim type. here is the direct quote.

"Hey guys, I was lucky enough to wear the uniform on set and now the episode aired today I'm probably a little more free to talk about it.

It was more like a stretch denim, will try get some example pictures of closeups to be used at somepoint."

I know zip about fabric and sewing. 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

56 minutes ago, pm07 said:

So is anyone going to take a stab at the actual uniform specifics , material , cut wise?  I thought it looked a lot like the same material that was used for the ICAT but according to another 501st member who wore the Andor costume, its stretchy denim type. here is the direct quote.

"Hey guys, I was lucky enough to wear the uniform on set and now the episode aired today I'm probably a little more free to talk about it.

It was more like a stretch denim, will try get some example pictures of closeups to be used at somepoint."

I know zip about fabric and sewing. 

I'd recommend that we start a separate thread for that if we are developing another CRL with text. This thread is to bolster feedback for possible detachment creation and ideas related to it  

[Jankes[PR-CMD]]

4 hours ago, pm07 said:

So is anyone going to take a stab at the actual uniform specifics , material , cut wise?  I thought it looked a lot like the same material that was used for the ICAT but according to another 501st member who wore the Andor costume, its stretchy denim type. here is the direct quote.

"Hey guys, I was lucky enough to wear the uniform on set and now the episode aired today I'm probably a little more free to talk about it.

It was more like a stretch denim, will try get some example pictures of closeups to be used at somepoint."

I know zip about fabric and sewing. 

 

There's new topic about Andor units in Cantina. I'm also interested this character, but this is not a place to discuss about it.