CRL adjustments

[stormachtig[TX]]

How do we go about updating a CRL already in existence?

Is that a simple process?

I ask the question with a point in mind.
Recently, I've had the fortune to speak with a nice lady called Yvonne who was a stand-by... costumer? wardrobe person? on set at Cruachan, and I've also spoken to one of the extras at the same location.

They both told me (because I asked) that the armour was black.
That being the case, can we have the CRL updated to specify just "black" as an option?

Maybe the chap here that was also an extra for the Aldhani scenes can confirm. (sorry, I can't remember his name!)

 

[fb501[TX]]

Oh yeah that was me, the armour was black. 

 

Also double checked with one of the dressers and another one of the extras from aldhani confirmed it aswell

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

So, with all the discussion we had regarding the color and nailing it down to panzer grey range, was that entirely due to lighting?

I have to ask because we spent literally weeks debating the color, buying paint, testing, all the effort that was put into it, and now the day after we publish the CRL we are told its black. 

No, it would not be an easy process since all photos with all versions need to be completely redone, after all the armors are repainted. It was a push to the finish to get all the armor together.  

 

That said, having rewatched the entire series yesterday the Aldhani armor does not appear black. The same situation exists with the ATAT drivers (I had one). The armor and helmet were grey but due to lighting appear white on screen. 

[stormachtig[TX]]

I also watched the Aldhani storyline yesterday while considering whether to make the post or not, but came to a different conclusion!
I was in favour of the "greenblack" which was talked about, but now believe that it's just black, reflecting in its visuals the vast expanse of greenery of the environment.

It certainly does not appear grey to me, but different eyes see different things on different devices.
Since we've now got 4 different people involved in the production of the episodes who say the hard parts are black, can we not just add black as an option, and advise applicants to paint their armour according to screen references?

This isn't quite the same as the AT-AT helmet (which appears white due to lighting and post-processing) - this is just environmentals at work. The Ferrix troopers look like they're wearing a slightly different shade, but then they're surrounded mostly by the brown tones of the buildings.

I guess sometimes black is just black...   😐
 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

I mean, if you handed the item below (the very dark green, as used in the new CRL) to someone, and then 12 months later asked them what colour it was, 99.9% of the time they'd simply answer "black". No one wants to be the person who rambles on, "well, it's a funny story that it looked black, but if you looked very closely you could clearly see a dark greenish hue!". Well, except us folks 😉

 

Having some insight into the production is great, but ultimately we are trying to recreate what was seen on the screen. Reference images and screenshots have to take priority over memories I believe. If anything, the grass and the green fatigues should have made the armour look *less* green, not more. It would be a shame to undue months of completely transparent work almost as soon as the CRL is published.

 

[stormachtig[TX]]

I'd say that armour looks grey, but maybe that's just my screen. 

Like I said, I'm not trying to undo anybody's work - I'm suggesting an addition as opposed to a wholesale correction.

Black armour, I feel, is screen accurate. If you take one of the characters and remove the background, sure! There will be a green tint. But we know that the environment was mostly green, because that's what we see on screen.

Black armour is completely screen accurate as seen on the hill. When the main characters are inside the bunker, there is no evidence of green hues, more grey... Because the environment is grey.

I've always thought of it as black. To me, it's always looked black on screen, but I was talked into painting my armour blackgreen. I wish I hadn't been so easily convinced!

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

I know where you're coming from, but the dark green/grey hues look even more obvious to me inside the bunker and on the wall than it does outside.

 

I mean, compare the colour of the armour above to the black boots or gloves. There is a huge difference. True "black" is usually a lot more obvious to identify than this, and unless it is gloss it is very unlikely to reflect the colours from surrounding environments. The CRL armour in the post above is a very close visual match to what we see on the screen, both in and out of the bunker.

[stormachtig[TX]]

Agreed, to an extent.

But this is a bad quality example which is down to lighting. You can see that the white railings on the left are bright blue, so of course there is going to be an effect on anything else.

Flat surfaces reflect light, whether gloss or matt, but they reflect on different ways. Gloss will provide more "spot" light with greater contrast between light and dark. Matt will tend to take on a more even hue from the reflected light.

This photo is taken in the dark with coloured lighting. Not admissible as an example.

(also, black fabric will always look "blacker" due to texture differences under almost all circumstances)

[fb501[TX]]

At the end of the day the armour used on set was black. I wore it, was already a 501st member and was taking notes right from my first costume fitting.

 

How it looks on screen is entirely upto your own perception and always will be. Take any photo of anything in your own house, it won't look the same on the photo as it does to your own eye.

I think I did say on the crl thread previously that it was black

 

[stormachtig[TX]]

Ok, so these are crappy photos from my tv screen, but... In the bunker (around 22:15 or so in The Eye), it's quite clear that the armour is matte black, with no green tint. The black only differs with the reflection from the environment.

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Again, you need to compare colours in the same photos. Yes, the lighting might be awful, but they are all under the same lighting. Look at the gloves and the E-11 barrel in your last post - both are indisputably black. Both have the same lighting conditions as the armour. They are also both a much, much darker colour than any part of the armour that you can see in the same screenshot. It's not even close, and it can't be explained just by materials, angles, matte/gloss contrast or lighting. The shoulder straps are also black, and are also much darker than the armour.

So you have a matte black synthetic fabric, a glossy black leather fabric, and a satin black effect prop made from metal, rubber or plastic. All are clearly a far darker colour than the armour in every screenshot, under all lighting conditions.

I do not doubt for a minute that when on set, the armour looked black, especially as it was constantly in contrast with the green fatigues. But I do not see how we can disregard all the visual references from the show and change the CRL to indicate that the armour should be the same colour as the straps, gloves and boots.

[stormachtig[TX]]

No, it can *exactly* be explained by materials, angles, matte/gloss contrast or lighting.

Exactly that.

Matte black will never be as uniformly dark black as other compositions of black.

You paint one piece of plastic half gloss back, and half matt black, and stick it next to a black boot, and you'll see the difference in perceivable tone of black.

The matt will reflect surrounding light in a more uniform manner, making it seem lighter, or even more colourful.

It's not just that it "looked black" on set. It was black on set. The actors said it was black and the wardrobe staff said it was black.

The only request here is to add the colour of "black" to the permitted shades of armour paint.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Just so everyone is aware, this topic is visible to me and the team are discussing it.

CRLs are living and breathing documents, they can change. In my experience, CRLs change when new information is brought to light (as is here) and that information is vetted to be appropriate for a change to the CRL. The current situation here is that we have had a discussion going since October 2022, as stated by the team, in which we talked to great lengths about the color and agreement for it and then before the ink dries on it we are already discussing a revision.

Creating a thread, as this, is definitely the proper way to go about this for transparency; however, we'll need some time to digest this. I'm not saying no, but want to make sure processes are safe guarded.

[stormachtig[TX]]

Just to expand on the point I made above, albeit in a crude way, as I don't have the best materials available, I took a scrap piece of ABS, sprayed it with gloss black, and after letting that cure overnight, I used my cheap Matte varnish on one half of it, to try and demonstrate the difference in reflectivity that those finishes can have on an item.

The only difference between the first and second pic is the angle at which it was taken.
With multiple, and different, light sources, you can achieve a whole range of effects on objects with a matte finish.

(also, to go back to yet another previous point - belts, gloves, and boots, always look darker than the rest of a black costume due to the material/finish - see the TIE CRLs for examples)

I had to add this one extra shot that I took a few minutes later after I turned the bench lights off. Only diffused light now coming in through the window. The material behind it is medium/light grey. The painted ABS is still black.
Explanation? Matte finish, materials, lighting, angles. 

 

[Detaleader[501st]]

Whatever exact shade it is - as long as the black stripe on the shoulder (for those who have it) looks noticeably darker, we're good with it being a range, right? 

To use the AT-AT driver CRL as an example: It allows for gray and white. I don't see any issue with allowing both Dark Gray and Black for this armor. 

[stormachtig[TX]]

I've been campaigning for an *addition* to the colour ranges, as opposed to a replacement.

I'm now firmly in camp Black, but I understand that some people (not yet approved) have spent a lot of time and effort working on their armour, and leniency should be exercised.
As for the difference in rank stripe blacks.. I'd bet good money that's a gloss vs matte thing, but if somebody has painted their armour dark grey, then as long as there's a noticeable difference, then that should be fine.
Then again, I'm not making the rules here.. I'm just campaigning for them to be tweaked.

(there are a lot of examples from the past, like the AT-AT driver, where there was an *insane* amount of post-processing involved to make that mid-grey look white. That used to happen a lot (Han Solo's ESB brown/blue parka being another prime example). There's nothing special that's been done in this case. It's just the way that light works, on and off-screen. ).

[gucabe[TX]]

I am in the process of building an Army trooper and I do not know why the armor is not flat black? The reason the armor looks greenish/greyish is because the flat black does reflect some light but it also disperses it on its surface and there is Green everywhere in aldhani as well as a cloudy atmosphere. I'm 100% sure that if you paint your armor flat black and take pictures in a green field your armor will look greenish.  

I will not be painting my armor dark grey. Ill just take my pictures near a lof of green and it will look like the show. 

 

#campblack

 

 

 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

On 8/4/2023 at 9:16 AM, gucabe said:

I am in the process of building an Army trooper and I do not know why the armor is not flat black? The reason the armor looks greenish/greyish is because the flat black does reflect some light but it also disperses it on its surface and there is Green everywhere in aldhani as well as a cloudy atmosphere. I'm 100% sure that if you paint your armor flat black and take pictures in a green field your armor will look greenish.  

I will not be painting my armor dark grey. Ill just take my pictures near a lof of green and it will look like the show. 

 

#campblack

 

 

 

We have had extensive debate on this topic and have not yet come to a resolution on the addition of the black color. However, one could paint it a very dark gray shade that is close to black and I don't see why there wouldn't be an issue. We establish the CRL as a guideline for the GMLs based on the best evidence that we have at the time and your GML will ultimately be responsible for the approval of the costume, not the detachment. Not sure why it was necessary to post that you are just going to paint it however you feel it should be.

[Dropkick[CMD-XO]]

There appears to be some confusioin between set accurate & screen accurate.

As much as it's good to be set accurate & it's wonderful to have such an insight, the legion CRLs go by what is seen on screen.

The vast majority of people only get to see the characters on screen, while only a very lucky select few get to see them on set.

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

set pictures that we see also suffer from the same issue as every other image, every monitor looks different. I can look at pictures on my phone and they look a lot different than on my desktop, but its the same picture. Im workon the new new Pretorean Guard and that red looks different between the two devices. 

[gucabe[TX]]

Id like to revisit this since i'm in the process of paiting the armor. As I've stated before I believe the armor is flat black and here is my case. What we need is a reference of a known object so we can compare in different lighting and enviromental conditions. I'd like to point out the leather belt as that object. 

Take a look at these 2 images (CRL vs Show)

You can also check the belt boxes. In the show the boxes have far more contrast than the one on the CRL.  Can we at least add the flat black as an option on there?

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Its under review by staff at this time. 

[gucabe[TX]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

Its under review by staff at this time. 

Thank you so much.

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

Hello all!

Our team has had much discussion about the hard armor coloration of the IAT Andor CRL where we reviewed recently posted references from members as well as previous discussions on the initial CRL development thread. That initial CRL development thread had a very extensive coloration discussion which included various paint swatches and colors/brands that would most accurately represent the costume as we see it on the screen. This led the development of the text in its current form within the CRL.

With the evidence we were provided, we felt that including the text "very dark grey" is better suited to ensure that the armor was not painted a flat black/matte black as that was no the true representation of how the costume has appeared within the shots that we have collected since the episode(s) aired. However, this does not limit it to a very grey with a prevalent black tone (after all, adding more black to white makes it more gray), as well as the inclusion of greenish undertones as acceptable; thus we made an "acceptable range" of colors to include RLM 70 to Sherwin Williams SW6994 Greenblack, or equivalent. This will allow for a much easier time globally for troopers to procure the proper coloration for their kits.

At this time we are keeping the text as it is currently written for the basic (L1) text to state very dark grey with the additional text about undertones and acceptable/equivalent range of colors.

[gucabe[TX]]

I value your work you have put on this, I know its a very time consuming task and I'm greatful of all of what you have done. However I will have to agree to dissagree. Here is my armor painted flat black and on a grass covered floor, it looks dark grey with green undertones, it is next to one of the show and the CRL images. 

Thanks