Imperial Army Trooper - Andor - CRL Discussion

[Vanedor[501st]]

Quote

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.

I feel this is confusing.

If it's optional, why put it in the requirements for level 2 at all? It could stay in level 1 with the optional mention .

[TeaJay[TX]]

1 hour ago, Vanedor said:

I feel this is confusing.

If it's optional, why put it in the requirements for level 2 at all? It could stay in level 1 with the optional mention .

You make a good point with this statement. It is most definitely an optional scenario for the jacket/tunic... as not all soldiers have the tunic hooks on their belt line. Since the component is truly optional, I agree that this should be stated in level 1 with a strong emphasis on the holes and hooks being optional.

@Blackwatch what are your thoughts?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

You guys are right, when I write something it makes sense to me but I need that third and fourth set of eyes on it. 

That od chip looks sort of like the original 1942 formula, one pound of lampblack to one gallon of chrome yellow lacquer paint. The WWII equipment restorers use something a bit less color saturated on all their tractors trucks and jeeps.  Looks odd after seeing everything in movies being painted the wrong color for years. 

OK, so agreed, lets just say "olive" and leave it at that. A dye batch will come out how a dye batch comes out.   Ive altered the bargain and added the verbiage about the tunic hooks.

Ok so lets do this:

Change log 2.2

Jacket

A long-sleeved, olive green jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. Olive drab will not be approved. 

Color of the jacket ranges from olive green to olive tan.

Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave. 

Has a high mandarin style collar with  a left over right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.

The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 

Four pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.

The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt if present. If the holes are present tunic hooks must be used to keep the belt in place. 

One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures. Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.

Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.

If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed. 

[TeaJay[TX]]

Everything in the write up looks good to me with only one confusing line that I'd like to get additional thoughts on before we wrap up the jacket/tunic.

"If the holes are present tunic hooks must be used to keep the belt in place. "

I feel that we don't have enough evidence to state that if the holes are present on the tunic/jacket that it is required for tunic hooks to be used. 

We do know that some actors did not have tunic hooks on their costumes, but since the belt always covers up where the holes would be, I'm not comfortable with this particular statement.

It's possible that all the tunics/jackets may have had the holes for tunic hooks but not enough hooks to give out to everyone... 

Thoughts?

 

[Vanedor[501st]]

Do we know if there is any other way to attach these hooks? I'm really not familiar with them.

[TeaJay[TX]]

31 minutes ago, Vanedor said:

Do we know if there is any other way to attach these hooks? I'm really not familiar with them.

There are two common ways to use these hook holes on the tunic... wearing suspenders designed to attach to these hooks under your tunic or the tunic has extra fabric on the inside around the waist to attach the upper portion of the hooks... the lower portion of the hooks go through to the exterior holes to the outside of the tunic to hold the belt in place.

 

Here's an example of the tunic suspenders that use tunic hooks:

https://www.epicmilitaria.com/tunic-belt-hook-support-straps.html

---

I'm not sure who all will want to create their tunic/jacket to support tunic hooks but if they do, we should have something in writing (like we do) to allow for them since they are seen on screen.

My previous post noting that we have no proof that all tunics used onscreen may or may not have had tunic hook holes on the jacket... some may have had them but didn't have hooks and the holes were hidden by the leather belt.

Since we lack that info, I would suggest removing the text that I noted above in my previous post... if everyone is okay with that. I think the Tunic/jacket is a done deal and we are ready for the next item.

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

My concern with removing it is that in a few months were going to get a forum request to add it and we will be back to this discussion again, and it will come up that we knew about it.  There is visual evidence that they do exist, and then there will be a post requesting we add it.  Personally I would rather leave it an option for the wearer.  There will always be the L3 guys, guys that want the ultimate and will pay any price to get it.  Whether we see them or not is less a concern to me, over whether they exist on the part.  We dont often see the velcro used to close flaps on the stormfronts, but we know they are there, going back as far as ESB when Luke pulls his coverall on. Its a factor of keeping things in place. My belts slip all over the place, they never stay put.  The suspenders look like a pain, but the Wermacht used them for several years to keep the belt in place on the soldier wearing it.  

 

Change log 2.3

Jacket

A long-sleeved, olive green jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. Olive drab will not be approved. 

Color of the jacket ranges from olive green to olive tan.

Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave. 

Has a high mandarin style collar with  a left over right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.

The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 

Four pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.

The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.  if present. If the holes are present tunic hooks must be used to keep the belt in place. 

 

One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures. Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.

Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.

If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed. 

 

[TeaJay[TX]]

14 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

My concern with removing it is that in a few months were going to get a forum request to add it and we will be back to this discussion again, and it will come up that we knew about it.  There is visual evidence that they do exist, and then there will be a post requesting we add it.  Personally I would rather leave it an option for the wearer.  There will always be the L3 guys, guys that want the ultimate and will pay any price to get it.  Whether we see them or not is less a concern to me, over whether they exist on the part.  We dont often see the velcro used to close flaps on the stormfronts, but we know they are there, going back as far as ESB when Luke pulls his coverall on. Its a factor of keeping things in place. My belts slip all over the place, they never stay put.  The suspenders look like a pain, but the Wermacht used them for several years to keep the belt in place on the soldier wearing it.  

 

Change log 2.3

Jacket

A long-sleeved, olive green jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. Olive drab will not be approved. 

Color of the jacket ranges from olive green to olive tan.

Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave. 

Has a high mandarin style collar with  a left over right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.

The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 

Four pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.

The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.  if present. If the holes are present tunic hooks must be used to keep the belt in place. 

 

One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures. Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.

Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.

If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed. 

 

I'm all for keeping reference that the tunic holes are present on the tunic and hooks may be used. I just don't want to force people to use tunic hooks if the holes on the tunic are present; if your tunic has them and you want to use them go for it. 

Now that I think about it... I can see the perspective of how you're writing things @Blackwatch. The hooks being part of the tunic itself in this line-item's write-up? I was for whatever reason thinking as if the tunic hooks would be listed in the optional accessories section. If we want to keep it in the tunic section, we should note that:

If optional tunic hooks are used on the tunic, a total of two (one on each hip) black tunic hooks are present.

Thoughts?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:59 AM, TeaJay said:

If we want to keep it in the tunic section, we should note that:

If optional tunic hooks are used on the tunic, a total of two (one on each hip) black tunic hooks are present.

Thoughts?

That was my line of reasoning, but this spells it out better. 

Clarification, in the line above, did you mean to say If optional tunic holes are used on the tunic... or did you mean hooks, since its used twice in the descriptor. 

Ok let me make that change. Its optional. you can have the holes, but the hooks are supposed to fill the holes. I would want the holes so I can keep my belt from slipping. 

 

[TeaJay[TX]]

3 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

That was my line of reasoning, but this spells it out better. 

Clarification, in the line above, did you mean to say If optional tunic holes are used on the tunic... or did you mean hooks, since its used twice in the descriptor. 

Ok let me make that change. Its optional. you can have the holes, but the hooks are supposed to fill the holes. I would want the holes so I can keep my belt from slipping. 

 

I did mean hooks, but it does read a bit awkwardly with double descriptor.

I guess my overall point in this mini-side discussion is that if you have holes in your tunic, you should probably use hooks, but we shouldn't require hooks even if your tunic has holes for them... because the holes should always be hidden by the belt.

If you feel strongly that if you have holes on your tunic, you should have hooks, I'm okay with that too as long as other are in agreement. 

I personally bought hooks for mine even if I have to modify my ImperialBoots soft parts to support them.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Were all on the same page, holes are optional, and if you have holes they should have hooks, but not mandatory, at least at L1 approval level. 

Were going to have makers come out with the tunics with the holes because Ive already seen different makers discuss it on their individual pages.   I really dont want to have someone run into the situation (and we have all seen it before) where a maker has a screen-seen feature included, but because its not spelled out in the CRL, a GML will not approve it. 

[TeaJay[TX]]

7 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

Were all on the same page, holes are optional, and if you have holes they should have hooks, but not mandatory, at least at L1 approval level. 

Were going to have makers come out with the tunics with the holes because Ive already seen different makers discuss it on their individual pages.   I really dont want to have someone run into the situation (and we have all seen it before) where a maker has a screen-seen feature included, but because its not spelled out in the CRL, a GML will not approve it. 

Great point. I'm good with tunic if you and others are at this point with this last clarification. ?

[pm07[TX]]

David, on the lower pockets are you going to specify length of the pockets bottom from the bottom edge? Looking at the pictures/show, the lower pockets bottom edge are almost at the bottom edge of the tunic. 

[TeaJay[TX]]

28 minutes ago, pm07 said:

David, on the lower pockets are you going to specify length of the pockets bottom from the bottom edge? Looking at the pictures/show, the lower pockets bottom edge are almost at the bottom edge of the tunic. 

Great point of information request, Shane.

 

It appears that the pocket seam rests on the same seam as the end of the tunic as seen on Nemik at 7:40 of episode 6:

and 10:23 where you can see the crew as escorts for the Aldhani people.

 

 

If we fear that people won't make their pockets reach the bottom of the tunic, it may be worth adding.

[pm07[TX]]

8 hours ago, TeaJay said:

If we fear that people won't make their pockets reach the bottom of the tunic, it may be worth adding.

Yeah I brought this up because Jim's  1st  practice/sample tunic, the pocket did not go all the way down. Specifying it may help manufacturers that want to make them to the CRL standards . 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

wow, good catch, thats reallllllllly low. Ill adjust that in the text. 

 

Ive had a thought coming into work.  I backed away from the emphasis on the hole, and put the emphasis on the tunic hook. 

What are your thoughts on this to replace the text in the description? 

Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes. 

 

Im going to leave this out for discussion and I can edit that in, but I want to make the change to the pockets in this Change Log  I have changed jacket to tunic to keep the verbiage consistent.  Edited text in red strikethrough has been removed and all green and yellow text discused in the previous edit have been converted. 

Change Log 2.3

Tunic 

A long-sleeved, olive green jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 

Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave. 

Has a high mandarin style collar with  a left over right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.

The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 

Four pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic

The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.  if present. If the holes are present tunic hooks must be used to keep the belt in place. |||||||||||||       Under review

One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures. Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.

Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TeaJay[TX]]

9 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

wow, good catch, thats reallllllllly low. Ill adjust that in the text. 

 

Ive had a thought coming into work.  I backed away from the emphasis on the hole, and put the emphasis on the tunic hook. 

What are your thoughts on this to replace the text in the description? 

Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes. 

 

Im going to leave this out for discussion and I can edit that in, but I want to make the change to the pockets in this Change Log  I have changed jacket to tunic to keep the verbiage consistent.  Edited text in red strikethrough has been removed and all green and yellow text discused in the previous edit have been converted. 

Change Log 2.3

Tunic 

A long-sleeved, olive green jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 

Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave. 

Has a high mandarin style collar with  a left over right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.

The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 

Four pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic

The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 

The jacket may have optional holes near the waist of the jacket to allow tunic hooks to be used to hold up the belt. These optional holes must be covered by the belt.  if present. If the holes are present tunic hooks must be used to keep the belt in place. |||||||||||||       Under review

One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures. Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.

Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the green text and I like the new yellow text as a replacement. Just add a comma after the word used... right?

"If used, the hooks will..."

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

It looks like I left that Oxford comma out.  Ill add that.  Here is the revision. 

if we all agree, I believe this will finalize the Tunic.  

 

Change Log 2.4

Tunic 

A long-sleeved, olive green jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 

Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave. 

Has a high mandarin style collar with  a left over right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.

The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 

Four pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic

The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 

Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used, the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes.

One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures. Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.

Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed. 

[pm07[TX]]

Dave, 
Are you going to specify the arm pocket location.  'In line with the top edge of the front top pockets' etc or something similar like that?  To set a standard so we don't have pockets at varying heights? 

[pm07[TX]]

Credit to Gaines for the pics 

[bubuc44]

Hi Guys

Jacket is done (few pictures below of the process and finished one sneak pics will share more soon)

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/46/7/1668953775-315213059-3178903272419893-6806252858796417078-n.jpeg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/46/7/1668953776-315524996-1175762966354406-741228255352255891-n.jpeg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/46/7/1668953776-315528493-678726286947055-4987474654593610898-n.jpeg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/46/7/1668953775-315980918-886575109417240-3362312306466050681-n.jpeg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/46/7/1668953775-315942681-1308529473041052-3906654647609920311-n.jpeg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/46/7/1668953776-315955278-691778855623551-228833213144789934-n.jpeg

going with the corporal one

trouser and hat are in progress will try to share some pictures

Hope it will be helpful and that you will like the finished pattern  

and match your work on the crl guys @Blackwatch

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

@PM07 you bring up a point I had not considered.  We know the distance on the coverall based uniforms, all based up on location of the patch. With the followup of the tunic prototype offered by @bubuc44, I will add it. 

The prototype tunic has the pockets at mid-arm, well below the location of the original screen-seen items. 

Im going to incorporate it in this Change Log. Keep these observations coming!

 

Change Log 2.5

Tunic 

A long-sleeved, olive green jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 

Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave. 

Has a high mandarin style collar with  a left over right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.

The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 

Four pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic

The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 

Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used, the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes.

One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures.

The top of the arm pocket flaps are in line with the top edge of the chest pockets. 

Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.

Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed. 

 

[bubuc44]

@Blackwatch just to clarify : the arm pocket is at the same level/aligned of the hearth pocketsorry for the quality of picture (its just the mannequin bust that do not have enough shoulder and do not have arm, the shoulder fall down but it's aligned  will send you more pictures once I'll get it)

i have received a pictures of the trousers here below 

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/47/1/1669044383-315533789-1583882108695859-3846181411846516655-n.jpeg

[TeaJay[TX]]

4 hours ago, bubuc44 said:

@Blackwatch just to clarify : the arm pocket is at the same level/aligned of the hearth pocketsorry for the quality of picture (its just the mannequin bust that do not have enough shoulder and do not have arm, the shoulder fall down but it's aligned  will send you more pictures once I'll get it)

i have received a pictures of the trousers here below 

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/47/1/1669044383-315533789-1583882108695859-3846181411846516655-n.jpeg

I know we aren't on the trousers/pants yet, but I haven't seen any discernible stitching on the legs of the actors' trousers/pants. Did you? I noticed them on your tailor's prototype.

 

----

 

For the shoulder pockets height, it needs some felixiblity based on the person's build. People with broad shoulders will have an appearance of a higher shoulder pocket vs someone who has more slouching shoulders which will look lower. I think how @Blackwatchhas it written should work, but GMLs, etc. need to consider a little leeway based on shoulder type of the person wearing it. This will more critical for the non-armored variant of the costume.

[bubuc44]

11 hours ago, TeaJay said:

I know we aren't on the trousers/pants yet, but I haven't seen any discernible stitching on the legs of the actors' trousers/pants. Did you? I noticed them on your tailor's prototype.

 

----

 

For the shoulder pockets height, it needs some felixiblity based on the person's build. People with broad shoulders will have an appearance of a higher shoulder pocket vs someone who has more slouching shoulders which will look lower. I think how @Blackwatchhas it written should work, but GMLs, etc. need to consider a little leeway based on shoulder type of the person wearing it. This will more critical for the non-armored variant of the costume.

@TeaJay of course you are right for the pocket 

please have a closer look to the picture below and have a closer look to the trouser, you'll see some lines on each legs (2 on each) 

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2022/47/2/1669101224-316225463-434050195594281-1596446907349928050-n.jpeg