Imperial Super Commando - Gar Saxon (Rebels - Animated) CRL Discussion

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Revised:

 

Helmet

 

• Imperial Mandalorian Super Commando style helmet, matching visual references from Star Wars Rebel animated series.

• Helmet should be painted and weathered to match references. Weathering of the red paint should match the light grey paint used elsewhere on the helmet.

• Helmet dome and face plate to be painted red as per references.

• Rear plate, raised rear panel detailing, the upper cheek plates, left ear plate and teeth must be painted light grey as per references.

• Lower cheek plates, raised rear panel, ear caps and antennae must be painted white (or a lighter shade of grey), as per references. Additional detailing on rear plate must be painted white.

• All recessed panel lines are black or dark grey.

• There is an inverted white outlined triangle in the centre of the forehead. This should be painted.

• Both visor pieces are black, and obscure the wearer's face. The lower visor is curved at the top, and tapers in slightly to its narrowest point at the bottom.

• Left ear cap is oval, with a raised circular detail at the top, and a slightly tapered antenna with a circular profile.

• Right ear cap is angled at the top, with a narrower half oval at the base. There is an angled recessed panel line in the bottom right corner of the cap. The cap has a raised circular detail at the top, and two antennae. The rear antenna matches that on the left side, while the front antenna is significantly taller.

• Twin recessed panel lines (1 & 2) run around the upper visor, angle up over the ear pieces, and join in horizontal lines across the back of the helmet. A third panel line (3) runs parallel and just above the upper of these two lines (2), joined to this same upper panel line at both ends, and running horizontally across the central 1/3 of the rear of the helmet. The distance between 2 and 3 is approximately half the distance between lines 1 and 2 at the rear of the helmet.

• Additional panel lines vertically bisect each ear plate, and run around their edges.

• Rear bottom lip of the helmet has a raised, curved rim, running between the rear edges of each ear plate.

• Back plate has a raised rectangular panel with details to match references. These are long vertical oblongs on both sides, a circle in the lower centre, and a double striped rectangle within another rectangle in the upper centre. Details are outlined by recessed panel lines.

• The back plate is light grey, but has white detailing painted on either side of the raised rectangular panel.

• There are six teeth, three on each side of the lower visor, with the recesses painted black.

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

One thing I'm definitely still struggling on - the colour of the earcaps and antennae.  In some references they are very clearly white when compared to the grey ear plate underneath:

Yet in others, they look grey when compared to the sections of the helmet that we know to be white:

Then when you look at Saxon and a grunt side by side, it seems clear that both of their sets of antennae look grey, or am I just assuming that Gar antennae are the same colour as the grunt's?

This looks like inconsistency in the animation rather than some trick of OSL.  If so, how do we make the decision?  I would say they look grey more often than they look white, but I'm not 100% comfortable ignoring the handful of screens that show otherwise.

[MisterxM]

I think that this sections are light grey, sometimes looks little bit darker. But it's not white in my opinion. 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

34 minutes ago, MisterxM said:

I think that this sections are light grey, sometimes looks little bit darker. But it's not white in my opinion. 

I'd agree with you Marcin.  I think we just have to assume that the few scenes where it looked more white were mistakes.

How do you feel about the rest of the revised text?

[beren88]

3 hours ago, tipperaryred said:

One thing I'm definitely still struggling on - the colour of the earcaps and antennae.  In some references they are very clearly white when compared to the grey ear plate underneath:

Yet in others, they look grey when compared to the sections of the helmet that we know to be white:

Then when you look at Saxon and a grunt side by side, it seems clear that both of their sets of antennae look grey, or am I just assuming that Gar antennae are the same colour as the grunt's?

This looks like inconsistency in the animation rather than some trick of OSL.  If so, how do we make the decision?  I would say they look grey more often than they look white, but I'm not 100% comfortable ignoring the handful of screens that show otherwise.

im torn on the answer to that.  I was originally thinking white with weathering given the feathering we see on the grey, but that feathering might be just the animation.

In the first pic, i would say the part over ears is grey, but the antenna sitting on the grey is white.  the antenna look white in all the images to me. the second image still looks white over grey. its the third image where the flat part under the antenna looks white, so two of three appear grey flat part with white pice sitting on grey with white antennae

[beren88]

1 hour ago, MisterxM said:

I think that this sections are light grey, sometimes looks little bit darker. But it's not white in my opinion. 

i think the flat section is very light grey, but the antenna piece is weathered white.

it seems like the side piece is two colours, which is odd to me aesthetically

 

[MisterxM]

Now I'm wondering about spaces between the teeths on the front of helmet. Is the color more black or maybe dark grey? 

And also this front cut line. On some photos it looks more narrow. But it can be only my impression. 

If we talk about antennas... I absolutelly agree with you guys, color is white with little weathering

[beren88]

4 minutes ago, MisterxM said:

Now I'm wondering about spaces between the teeths on the front of helmet. Is the color more black or maybe dark grey? 

And also this front cut line. On some photos it looks more narrow. But it can be only my impression. 

you got me there. my feeling is grey with weathering. spaces liek that naturally collect dirt and dust faster and the shadows make it darker.  but black would certainly make painting it much easier. so iw ill defer to the higher ups on making that decision.

As for the cut line, i am going to overlay my model over the picture so that it matches references exactly

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

For the gaps between teeth, I would suggest the same as the panel lines and say "black or dark grey".

The antennae and ear caps are tough...  Best we can do is place them relative to the other colours.

We know upper cheek parts are grey, and lower cheek parts are white.  The question is do we say that the antennae match one of those, or are a third colour?  My personal instinct would be to suggest the same light grey as the upper cheeks for the ear caps.  Then maybe a weathered white for the antennae as you both suggest.

[beren88]

40 minutes ago, tipperaryred said:

For the gaps between teeth, I would suggest the same as the panel lines and say "black or dark grey".

The antennae and ear caps are tough...  Best we can do is place them relative to the other colours.

We know upper cheek parts are grey, and lower cheek parts are white.  The question is do we say that the antennae match one of those, or are a third colour?  My personal instinct would be to suggest the same light grey as the upper cheeks for the ear caps.  Then maybe a weathered white for the antennae as you both suggest.

im cool with all of what you said.

gaps can be interpreted many ways, and doesnt detract if either colour are chosen.

i like the grey ear caps with weathered white antenna.  

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

There's definite inconsistencies with the animations, so for now we'll just flag it up with a different colour and move on to the next step (under suit).  So here is the draft text for the helmet.  We can always return to it if there are any new references or inputs that are useful.

 

Helmet

 

• Imperial Mandalorian Super Commando style helmet, matching visual references from Star Wars Rebel animated series.
• Helmet should be painted and weathered to match references. Weathering/chipping of the red paint should match the light grey paint used elsewhere on the helmet.
• Helmet dome and face plate to be painted red as per references.
• Rear plate, raised rear panel detailing, the upper cheek plates, left ear plate and teeth must be painted light grey as per references.
• Lower cheek plates, raised rear panel, must be painted white (or a lighter shade of grey), as per references. Additional detailing on rear plate must be painted white.
• Ear caps and antennae may be painted light grey or a weathered white.
• All recessed panel lines are black or dark grey.
• There is an inverted white outlined triangle in the centre of the forehead. This should be painted.  A weathered decal may be acceptable if achieving the look of having been painted.
• Both visor pieces are black, and obscure the wearer's face. The lower visor tapers in slightly to its narrowest point at the bottom.
• Left ear cap is oval, with a raised circular detail at the top, and a slightly tapered antenna with a circular profile.
• Right ear cap is angled at the top, with a narrower half oval at the base. There is an angled recessed panel line in the bottom right corner of the cap. The cap has a raised circular detail at the top, and two antennae. The rear antenna matches that on the left side, while the front antenna is significantly taller.
• Twin recessed panel lines (1 & 2) run around the upper visor, angle up over the ear pieces, and join together in horizontal lines across the back of the helmet. A third panel line (3) runs parallel and just above the upper of these two lines (2), joined to this same upper panel line at both ends, and running horizontally across the central portion of the rear of the helmet. The distance between 2 and 3 is approximately half the distance between lines 1 and 2 at the rear of the helmet.
• Additional panel lines vertically bisect each ear plate, and run around their edges.
• Rear bottom lip of the helmet has a raised, curved rim, running between the rear edges of each ear plate.
• Back plate has a raised rectangular panel with details to match references. These are long vertical oblongs on both sides, a circle in the lower centre, and a double striped rectangle within another rectangle in the upper centre. Details are outlined by recessed panel lines.
• The back plate is light grey, but has white detailing painted on either side of the raised rectangular panel.
• There are six teeth, three on each side of the lower visor, with the recesses painted black or dark grey.

[beren88]

4 hours ago, tipperaryred said:

There's definite inconsistencies with the animations, so for now we'll just flag it up with a different colour and move on to the next step (under suit).  So here is the draft text for the helmet.  We can always return to it if there are any new references or inputs that are useful.

 

Helmet

 

• Imperial Mandalorian Super Commando style helmet, matching visual references from Star Wars Rebel animated series.
• Helmet should be painted and weathered to match references. Weathering/chipping of the red paint should match the light grey paint used elsewhere on the helmet.
• Helmet dome and face plate to be painted red as per references.
• Rear plate, raised rear panel detailing, the upper cheek plates, left ear plate and teeth must be painted light grey as per references.
• Lower cheek plates, raised rear panel, must be painted white (or a lighter shade of grey), as per references. Additional detailing on rear plate must be painted white.
• Ear caps and antennae may be painted light grey or a weathered white.
• All recessed panel lines are black or dark grey.
• There is an inverted white outlined triangle in the centre of the forehead. This should be painted.  A weathered decal may be acceptable if achieving the look of having been painted.
• Both visor pieces are black, and obscure the wearer's face. The lower visor tapers in slightly to its narrowest point at the bottom.
• Left ear cap is oval, with a raised circular detail at the top, and a slightly tapered antenna with a circular profile.
• Right ear cap is angled at the top, with a narrower half oval at the base. There is an angled recessed panel line in the bottom right corner of the cap. The cap has a raised circular detail at the top, and two antennae. The rear antenna matches that on the left side, while the front antenna is significantly taller.
• Twin recessed panel lines (1 & 2) run around the upper visor, angle up over the ear pieces, and join together in horizontal lines across the back of the helmet. A third panel line (3) runs parallel and just above the upper of these two lines (2), joined to this same upper panel line at both ends, and running horizontally across the central portion of the rear of the helmet. The distance between 2 and 3 is approximately half the distance between lines 1 and 2 at the rear of the helmet.
• Additional panel lines vertically bisect each ear plate, and run around their edges.
• Rear bottom lip of the helmet has a raised, curved rim, running between the rear edges of each ear plate.
• Back plate has a raised rectangular panel with details to match references. These are long vertical oblongs on both sides, a circle in the lower centre, and a double striped rectangle within another rectangle in the upper centre. Details are outlined by recessed panel lines.
• The back plate is light grey, but has white detailing painted on either side of the raised rectangular panel.
• There are six teeth, three on each side of the lower visor, with the recesses painted black or dark grey.

sounds great.  I am back at work on the helmet model. Been doing Star wars troops for last 4 days straight, so wasnt modeling during that time. Hopefully will have first WIP by wednesday

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Starting point for Flight Suit, please let me know what needs adding/removing/changing.  Colours as always are tricky!

Flight Suit

• May be one or two piece construction.

• Top should be long sleeved with vertical ribs.

• Top should be dark brown/maroon in colour.

• Each shoulder has a black and white imperial cog patch.

• Bottom should be constructed from six panels as shown in reference.

• Bottom should be white in colour.

• Bottom should be tucked inside Shin Armour.

• Garment should fit tightly to the wearer.

[MisterxM]

Maybe only sleeves & neck seal could be brown/maroon not the whole top of undersuit. This parts could be covered by armor & will be not visible. Of course it's only a suggestion. 

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:10 AM, MisterxM said:

Maybe only sleeves & neck seal could be brown/maroon not the whole top of undersuit. This parts could be covered by armor & will be not visible. Of course it's only a suggestion. 

I suppose that's the only colour we know the under suit to be. If we list it as only sleeves and neck, you could potentially have someone with a bright green torso which is CRL approvable 😅 I know where you're coming from, but if we don't have clear evidence that the torso is a different colour, best practice would be to consider it the same. Ultimately, if you had an under suit with a slightly different colour torso, it's not going to be visible in any clearance photos anyway, so we don't need to lose any sleep 🙂

[MisterxM]

Yes, your arguments makes sense😉 So now we must think about which material we can use. If you look at the sleeves, maybe you will see that they are very specific. I mean they looks like a british commando style sweater's (I used this comparison because I'm long term history reenactor). 

[beren88]

9 hours ago, MisterxM said:

Yes, your arguments makes sense😉 So now we must think about which material we can use. If you look at the sleeves, maybe you will see that they are very specific. I mean they looks like a british commando style sweater's (I used this comparison because I'm long term history reenactor). 

i liek that analogy. Its like a soft cotton right? i would agree on that for the top, btu then what would the bottom material be, i imagine the same material woudl be too soft for pants

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

I forgot that I had written some text for this costume before  (like in 2020) when the threads started becoming active.

Here is some food for thought from what I had done before, to add @tipperaryred:

Flight Suit

• Must be a cotton or cotton blend, one or two-piece garment, and must be properly fitted and shaped to the wearer.
• Must not have any visible pockets, pouches or zippers.
• The upper body part of the flight suit is a maroon-colored. The neck area of the flight suit goes halfway up the neck of the wearer to conceal skin when the helmet is worn.
• On each shoulder of the flight suit there is a white Imperial Cog emblem on a black background.
  • The cog is 3” (76.2mm) or 3.5” (88.9mm) diameter and 1” (25.4mm) from the shoulder seam.
  • The cog may be embroidered or vinyl.
• The lower body part of the flight suit is colored to match the white of the armor pieces.
• The lower body part of the flight suit has the following seams:
  • On the outside of each leg there is a double-lapped seam which runs the entire length of the suit showing from the top of the shins up under the belt.
  • On the front just above the top of the knee armor which wraps around to the back of the flight suit and appears on the back.
  • On the back from the knee seam there is a seam that runs up the back of each thigh and then curves to the outside of the back under the belt. There is a horizontal seam that runs across the butt connecting both of these seams running up the back of each thigh.
  • On the back there is central double-lapped seam which runs from under the belt to the crotch of the wearer.
     

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

5 hours ago, IcyTrooper said:

I forgot that I had written some text for this costume before  (like in 2020) when the threads started becoming active.

Here is some food for thought from what I had done before, to add @tipperaryred:

Flight Suit

• Must be a cotton or cotton blend, one or two-piece garment, and must be properly fitted and shaped to the wearer.
• Must not have any visible pockets, pouches or zippers.
• The upper body part of the flight suit is a maroon-colored. The neck area of the flight suit goes halfway up the neck of the wearer to conceal skin when the helmet is worn.
• On each shoulder of the flight suit there is a white Imperial Cog emblem on a black background.
  • The cog is 3” (76.2mm) or 3.5” (88.9mm) diameter and 1” (25.4mm) from the shoulder seam.
  • The cog may be embroidered or vinyl.
• The lower body part of the flight suit is colored to match the white of the armor pieces.
• The lower body part of the flight suit has the following seams:
  • On the outside of each leg there is a double-lapped seam which runs the entire length of the suit showing from the top of the shins up under the belt.
  • On the front just above the top of the knee armor which wraps around to the back of the flight suit and appears on the back.
  • On the back from this knee seam there is a seam that runs up the back of each thigh and then curves to the outside of the back under the belt. There is a horizontal seam that runs across the butt connecting both of these seams running up the back of each thigh.
  • On the back there is central double-lapped seam which runs from under the belt to the crotch of the wearer.
     

Perfect!

I'll merge what we have together next time I'm with my laptop.

I'd tend to agree on the commando style jumpers, that looks pretty close to me. Kevin makes a good point that it wouldn't make sense to use the same material for the trousers. So if we go with that, we'd either be looking at separate top and trousers, or an under suit made from the trouser material, with a jumper over the top? Either way, a 2 piece construction instead of the previous 1 piece option?

[MisterxM]

I agree with this proposal in CRL, 2 piece option will be good, especially if  top & trousers for flight suit are made from different materials & I think it's absolutelly possible. Saxon's suit is not a typical mandalorian flight suit like Boba Fett's  or Mandalorian Super Commando. 

[beren88]

very early early stages of the model. still have to pull in the shapes, but wanted to share some of the progress on the helmet model

[MisterxM]

Looks very promising, nice work👍 Nice shape of area below the visor. I saw many types of models but a lot of them is incorrect because of this shape. 

And i think that triangle should be little bit higher😉

[tipperaryred[CMD-DCA]]

Flight Suit rewritten

Ryan's original text in white, my additions in yellow, areas I'm unsure about in red with my notes in green.

• Must be a cotton or cotton blend two-piece garment, and must be properly fitted and shaped to the wearer.  (If going with British military style pullover, material would commonly be acrylic it seems.)
• Must not have any visible pockets, pouches or zippers.
• The upper body part of the flight suit is maroon-colored, in a heavily ribbed style similar to British military pullovers. The neck area of the flight suit goes halfway up the neck of the wearer to conceal skin when the helmet is worn.
• On each shoulder of the flight suit there is a white Imperial Cog emblem on a black background.
  • The cog is 3” (76.2mm) or 3.5” (88.9mm) diameter and 1” (25.4mm) from the shoulder seam.
  • The cog may be embroidered or vinyl.
• The lower body part of the flight suit is colored to match the white of the armor pieces (in the references it looks more like a light grey, definitely a shade or two darker than the white armour?) .  The lower part may be a separate trouser garment, or part of a one piece flight suit.  If a one piece jump suit, the upper body jumper should be worn over the garment so as to obscure any view of the flight suit underneath.
• The lower body part of the flight suit has the following seams:
  • On the outside of each leg there is a double-lapped seam which runs the entire length of the suit showing from the top of the shins up under the belt.
  • On the front just above the top of the knee armor which wraps around to the back of the flight suit and appears on the back.
  • On the back from the knee seam there is a seam that runs up the back of each thigh and then curves to the outside of the back under the belt. There is a horizontal seam that runs across the butt connecting both of these seams running up the back of each thigh.
  • On the back there is central double-lapped seam which runs from under the belt to the crotch of the wearer.

[beren88]

More updates on the helmet. taking more shape

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

On 5/17/2023 at 5:01 PM, tipperaryred said:

Flight Suit rewritten

Ryan's original text in white, my additions in yellow, areas I'm unsure about in red with my notes in green.

• Must be a cotton or cotton blend two-piece garment, and must be properly fitted and shaped to the wearer.  (If going with British military style pullover, material would commonly be acrylic it seems.)
• Must not have any visible pockets, pouches or zippers.
• The upper body part of the flight suit is maroon-colored, in a heavily ribbed style similar to British military pullovers. The neck area of the flight suit goes halfway up the neck of the wearer to conceal skin when the helmet is worn.
• On each shoulder of the flight suit there is a white Imperial Cog emblem on a black background.
  • The cog is 3” (76.2mm) or 3.5” (88.9mm) diameter and 1” (25.4mm) from the shoulder seam.
  • The cog may be embroidered or vinyl.
• The lower body part of the flight suit is colored to match the white of the armor pieces (in the references it looks more like a light grey, definitely a shade or two darker than the white armour?) .  The lower part may be a separate trouser garment, or part of a one piece flight suit.  If a one piece jump suit, the upper body jumper should be worn over the garment so as to obscure any view of the flight suit underneath.
• The lower body part of the flight suit has the following seams:
  • On the outside of each leg there is a double-lapped seam which runs the entire length of the suit showing from the top of the shins up under the belt.
  • On the front just above the top of the knee armor which wraps around to the back of the flight suit and appears on the back.
  • On the back from the knee seam there is a seam that runs up the back of each thigh and then curves to the outside of the back under the belt. There is a horizontal seam that runs across the butt connecting both of these seams running up the back of each thigh.
  • On the back there is central double-lapped seam which runs from under the belt to the crotch of the wearer.

Thanks for typing that up, here are a few answers or things to ponder!  :

1. Material type - I had derived the cotton or cotton blend from the BHG Super Commando Captain (https://databank.501st.com/databank/Costuming:MW_Supercommando-Captain) since that was another animated series (Clone Wars vs Rebels); but if we think it could be described better I'm all for that!
2. Flight suit color - I'm good with wording it a bit darker than the white armor, like a gray color? I can definitely tell it is darker, I may have copied that over from the grunt one, but I can't remember since it was like 2020 when I had wrote it. 

The rest of it looks good to me!