New CRL Development - Mud Trooper

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

going back to the M64  M65 question, having owned several US M65s, they are nothing at all like the Belgian M64.  To me that almost looks like a German WWI field coat without the back frocking, trim piping and ornate buttons.  I still think it would be easier for us to determine an acceptable shape, and create a pattern.  

[JAFO[501st]]

28 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

 I still think it would be easier for us to determine an acceptable shape, and create a pattern.  

If that turns out to the direction we go the acceptable shape would be the First Order Officer tunic. It also includes some of the required detail.

[Morizhara[501st]]

For this build I used a Belgian style field coat, I removed the hood and the inner liner. I also removed the pocket flaps. 

With regards to the coat, I understand there is a conversation about making it a custom coat (since that is how it was done for the movie), but why make it more difficult? There is armor over majority of the coat body, so why make it more difficult for people to obtain one by making it a custom coat. 

I agree with Izzi on a set up for level 1/2 dealing with the custom coat style, but why push so hard to make some items (which are simple) harder to obtain? There are many costumes out there that have more people wanting an item than there are crafters for it, so why make simple pieces of a costume fall into that category? 

[izzi[TX]]

16 hours ago, Kobra883 said:

This is my first time to follow the creation of a CRL and yes I have had to remind myself that  this is not being a build thread.I have absolutely zero experience with following the creation and fully understanding what goes into the a CRL. I am in zero hurries to complete this outfit.I am enjoying watching this CRL come together while trying understand the process.My apologizes for not being able to add something helpful to the process....Thank you for answering my questions

You're fine, and are welcome to post up suggestions and alternate components/materials. Just be aware that we aren't in a position yet to say what would be considered accurate.

-iz

[darthcashman]

The reason we decided to use the off the shelf jacket (M-65) is for ease of access for members, and for uniformity. Once we lean towards custom made, there becomes the issue with making sure everyone who makes the jackets uses the same color/material. You can see how the shoretrooper soft parts differ between makers now. Same with officers, there are quite a few shades of OD officers out there. Custom made is definitely an option but should go up to level 2 or 3. Like the metal vs leather grommets on the parka, since its a crapshoot on which grommets you might get from whichever source. But, keeping in mind a fan standing 10 feet away is not going to know the difference between the leather or painted metal, nor will they know the difference between an off the shelf (modified) jacket, or custom sewn. 

 

Darren, I understand you have the source for THE buckles used on the respirator, but if they are that rare that only one source has them available, then they should be level 2 or 3 as well, with a reasonable alternative for level 1. You are keeping your source under wraps, so those of us without elite access are trying to do the best with what we can find without having to pay for elite access and international shipping. 

All that said, please if you have info, share it so we can ALL enjoy this fantastic armor set. I cut and pasted what I could from other CRLs, tried to word what needed to be written up the best way possible. I know the telemetry unit wording needs to be updated now that there are better references available, that sort, I've just not had the chance to sit with it and write out the details. Would love to just say "refer to reference pic" in the CRL. 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

In regards to custom, I havent been able to wear "off the shelf" or "miltary issue' since not long after I left it myself.  Unless there is a source for these items in "big" sizes, anything I wear will need to be made from scratch.  

This is the only sizes I have found on the jacket, which is why people my size will need to make it from scratch. Ive been doing that for ten years with this club, so I guess Im sort of used to it. 

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/belgian-m88-field-jacket-surplus/59147

Once a off the shelf item is found it  that the Det agrees on for the CRL,  weshould have a good supply for those that can fit it.  And one can be pulled apart to draft a pattern for any other sizes needed.  

[darthcashman]

that is definitely a concern, I have spoken with someone about tearing apart a jacket and making a pattern, but if you are going to get something custom built it might as well be able to meet level 2 or 3 requirements. right?  its about finding that happy medium between off the shelf and custom sewn. 

in my discussions during the writing of this CRL draft, I've brought up the snowtrooper pants (I'm pretty big into blizzard force). For the CRL they allow Karate gi pants. Obviously they didn't use those pants in the movie, but they are a good off the shelf match. If someone wants to go deep into the proper materials and stitch patterns, etc, that's awesome, and that's why there are extra levels of approval, but for average joe, karate gi pants look the part and are approvable. That's how the mudtroopers should be. 

[darthcashman]

All that said, even the off the shelf jackets will need some modification to meet accuracy. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I know at least one person here who wants to get the M64.  Once we have the material in hand we can figure out the fabric, whether it is some kind of wool blend or cotton blend, etc.  And I agree as well that by going the custom route you are in the proper place to do it per the original.

going back to what JAFO said at the top of the thread, and without both uniforms in front of me to look over other than posted pics, are the M64s similar in appearance to the FO tunic?

[amcclary[TX]]

Its great that this CRL has started and found a home in Spec Ops.   This is my first time posting here, but been involved with a lot of research on this one and active on the FB groups as well as with some other guys in my squad in Florida.  Its great to see something official forming.  We are working on solutions for a lot of the parts.  So far we have the armor, biceps, shins, helmet, goggles, and mask. 

If there is anything I can help with on this CRL please ask.

 

[amcclary[TX]]

We have also done a lot of research on the jacket and comparing photos available as well as a few very high res ones I acquired.  The jacket we have been told is a custom one.  So based on the details we do know from photos and other Star Wars costumes from the Empire, the attached drawing is what we think at this point it looks like with logo patrches on the shoulders. (not shown)

 

[Falcon]

Infinitely helpful, I'll start purchasing components listed. Mud trooper armor, here I come!

[Falcon]

Also, I think I found pretty much the spot on color spray paint.

https://www.hessenantique.com/Grey_Olive_Spray_Paint_p/p00005.htm

Might help

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Ive got a real war era Stahlhelm I was giften and it is this grey, (plus a TON of rust). This is a good find.  Have you ordered any yet? Im a sucker for large batches of spray paint, I would love a proper color chip. 

Feldgrau (its other name) is a common model color for model miniatures but that would look different due to "scale effect. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Falcon you may want to hold off on purchasing anything quite yet until we get a working, formal CRL.  At this point this is discussion phase, and like the big yellow warning at the beginning of the topic says, things might change before we are done writing the CRL.  

Andrew this is a very interesting graphic as well as your photos of the helmet and respirator.

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

It is confirmed that the fabric is a dark grey gaberdine?

On the goggles, and earlier question / answer pointed that there are two goggles. I must admit that by looking at the reference pictures posted I cannot tell the difference between the two.  

 

 

 

[JAFO[501st]]

You’ll notice the seal of the goggles is different. The rounded edge are the ones worn by Rio. The buckles on the goggles also appear to be different.

[Falcon]

By the way, blaster variants used by mud troopers are as follows;

E11

E10 (Mud trooper 'Standard Issue', also used by Range troopers)

E22 (double-barrel support blaster used also by Shoretroopers)

All of these also fit the description of 'Modified E11'

[Falcon]

Also, I think the jacket used by the Mudtroopers is much more grey in color than the listed Belgian M64. The style seems correct, but the M64 appears to be FAR too green to be screen accurate. Beyond that, everything else looks good. 

Blackwatch, Wilco. And no, I haven't ordered any yet. I get my paycheck today, though, so probably sometime soon.

[areilly]

15 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

It is confirmed that the fabric is a dark grey gaberdine?

Unfortunately, even the costume designer (Crossman) couldn't remember the fabric used in a recent Q&A. But so far I don't think there's a reference picture out there with sufficient detail of the fabric to say definitively  - I have a feeling it might be a regular twill instead of a gabardine. Also All the pics we do have are all post breakdown dept., so the mud/weathering is shifting the color as well. So far it seems that "standee trooper" is our best reference since its a studio shot under normal lighting. Stills from the movie will be tricky to use because of the dark sets, heavy color grading, and of course the mud - everything is going to look really dark and desaturated.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm hoping we get a display of the costume somewhere so people can take some close up shots in normal lighting - like we've got this one from Disney World of Beckett's cap that shows it to be the kind of olive suiting gabardine that you'd expect in an imperial officer's tunic, but it doesn't appear to be the same fabric as the troopers.

[Falcon]

2 hours ago, areilly said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This reinforces my hypothesis that the Belgian M64 is WAY too green to be screen accurate...these images, as well as the cutout image (the only reliable image with sufficient lighting to say) show that the fabric color used is significantly closer to gray than green. It's gray, with some green highlights, rather than a slightly faded olive as shown in the Belgian M64 jacket. Some modifications would need to be done to the jacket, whether it be bleaching the crap out of it and re-dying, or leaving it in the sun for a few months.

[Falcon]

This is on the ABSURDLY pricey side, but it looks pretty close to the fabric used.

https://bandjfabrics.com/fabric/wool-gabardine-steel-grey

What appears to be slightly less accurate, but much more affordable:

http://www.bluedesertco.com/gabardine-fabrics/gabardine-heather.htm

Edit: found one on etsy for pretty cheap, looks pretty accurate as well. https://www.etsy.com/listing/500855450/medium-grey-soild-60-poly-gabardine?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=grey gabardine&ref=sr_gallery-1-4

[Torrent[501st]]

On 7/6/2018 at 12:56 PM, Falcon said:

This reinforces my hypothesis that the Belgian M64 is WAY too green to be screen accurate...these images, as well as the cutout image (the only reliable image with sufficient lighting to say) show that the fabric color used is significantly closer to gray than green. It's gray, with some green highlights, rather than a slightly faded olive as shown in the Belgian M64 jacket. Some modifications would need to be done to the jacket, whether it be bleaching the crap out of it and re-dying, or leaving it in the sun for a few months.

Once the M64 is "muddied" up it doesn't look nearly as "green".  Having built a mud trooper already and modifying it as time goes, this  jacket works extremely well (at least for the time being).  Please remember CRLs have different levels and this "top shelf" stuff when its determined should be Level 2-3.  We have to make sure that we can still see the forest for the trees and not pigeon hole ourselves without having options.  This is a very versatile  kit and we should try to keep it that way within reason

[izzi[TX]]

Just checking in. I'm liking the discussion and additional references that are being brought forward for consideration.

I'm currently wrapping things up on the SW:E Army Trooper with the LMOs and will be back to this shortly. If anyone wants to move ahead, the next step will be taking the references and comparing them with the text. Because this is a very detailed kit, it'll be a piece by piece method. Feel free to take the references for a piece (I.e. chest armor) and break it down in comparison to the proposed requirements.  Then you may also compare it to the proposed model photo if you'd like and state whether you would find it to meet the requirements, or if you believe it does not meet the requirements. If it does not meet them, then it must clearly be stated why the proposed model photo doesn't meet the requirements.

Thanks everyone for your enthusiasm and sharing your knowledge on this unit.

-iz

[areilly]

Here's some general notes i've been keeping  on found components that have been confirmed so far (some have already been mentioned)

Some of these will definitely be level 2/3 parts

Gloves
Highlander Spec Ops Glove Mfg. #GL033-BK
Label on wrist strap removed if present - stitch holes visible on “Standee Trooper”
Sizing appears to run a size small - order a size larger than usual

Tunic:
Custom design (Crossman)
Crossman did not recall exact color fabric used
Cog patches both shoulders (Screen, Promos) One BTS shot seems to show the newer embossed vinyl style as used on the spaceport security uniforms.

Pants:
Custom design (Crossman)
Used braces/suspenders (Unnamed source, not verified elsewhere)

Snap hooks, D-Rings, and sliders for mask and helmet straps:
Yugoslavian/Serbian army surplus backpack (Crossman)

Mask attachment buckle:
Identified but appears to be rare single-supplier part, sourcing in progress

Cape, a.k.a. “Slick”
Called a “slick” by troopers (Solo Guide)
Russian Plash Palatka, with leather grommets, dyed black (Art of Solo)
Hero version had curved cut on bottom for better drape/appearance (Art of Solo)
Standard Plash can have bottom corner folded up using toggle so that it doesn’t drag on the ground. Some studio shots have the corner all the way down, but could be cumbersome while walking.

The stitching of the leather grommets varies - earlier examples have button-hole style eyelet stiching that wraps the inside edge of the eyelet, but later examples just have a circle stitch to simply affix the grommet

Some newer versions have brass grommets, but can be removed and replaced with a hand-sewn leather grommet to replicate the appearance of the older versions.

There is some waterproofing/wax treatment on the fabric, may need hot washes to remove, and may need 2x dye/wash cycles to darken sufficiently.

Ammo pouch 
Yugo M56 ammo pouch, same as ST (Screen, Promos) Not used by all troopers
Some on-screen configs include oiler pouch in standard location above pouch. (Solo guide, Screen)

Officer goggles
Modified Russian pattern 1938 pilot goggles. (Screen, Promos)

 

[Dragon_a[501st]]

On 7/7/2018 at 12:46 AM, Falcon said:

By the way, blaster variants used by mud troopers are as follows;

E11

E10 (Mud trooper 'Standard Issue', also used by Range troopers)

E22 (double-barrel support blaster used also by Shoretroopers)

All of these also fit the description of 'Modified E11'

I think the blaster the Range Troopers use is called an E11R.

The E10 is used by Mud Troopers as well as Mimban Stormtroopers