Imperial Army Trooper - Andor - CRL Discussion

[TeaJay[TX]]

5 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

 

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                            The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2 1/2" (63.5 mm) by 3 1/2" (88.9 mm) by 1" (25.4 mm) thick

@Blackwatch -- You have the OT measurements listed... please swap them to the Rogue One dimensions: 

 

Dimensions are approximately 2 inches (50.8 mm) wide, 3 inches (76.2 mm) tall and 1 inch (25.4 mm) thick"

[TeaJay[TX]]

14 minutes ago, Vanedor said:

Wondering, it seems belt boxes have been included with the belt. Should they not be a separated item? It's the case with the IOC crls.  It might help keeping the crl a bit more clear.

Also concerning the belt, perhaps it would be a nice idea to include the two recessed lines that TJ mentioned for level 2 ?
 

Belt boxes tend to be listed separately on costumes where they are considered optional (quite a few in IOC's case). In this case all troopers have them on removing them from being listed as optional, so I would assume that these would be listed along with the belt. The detachment may want them all in one line item similar to the mudtrooper to follow suit with other Spec Ops CRLs, too? 🤷‍♂️

---

Yes, I would hope we can consider the two recessed lines for L2 requirements for the belt. This is an important point we should not overlook.

[pm07[TX]]

6 hours ago, bubuc44 said:

maybe you are right but here it's an officer not a trooper so I'll double check on other screenshot  

If you look a couple of posts up, I reposted a screenshot of a Aldhani trooper belt box wise. 

[pm07[TX]]

16 minutes ago, TeaJay said:

Belt boxes tend to be listed separately on costumes where they are considered optional (quite a few in IOC's case). In this case all troopers have them on removing them from being listed as optional, so I would assume that these would be listed along with the belt. The detachment may want them all in one line item similar to the mudtrooper to follow suit with other Spec Ops CRLs, too? 🤷‍♂️

---

Yes, I would hope we can consider the two recessed lines for L2 requirements for the belt. This is an important point we should not overlook.

Agree with Tj on this ref the belt lines. You can see them clearly in the close up of the belt boxes you posted.  

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

20 hours ago, TeaJay said:

Belt boxes tend to be listed separately on costumes where they are considered optional (quite a few in IOC's case). In this case all troopers have them on removing them from being listed as optional, so I would assume that these would be listed along with the belt. The detachment may want them all in one line item similar to the mudtrooper to follow suit with other Spec Ops CRLs, too? 🤷‍♂️

---

Yes, I would hope we can consider the two recessed lines for L2 requirements for the belt. This is an important point we should not overlook.

 

20 hours ago, pm07 said:

Agree with Tj on this ref the belt lines. You can see them clearly in the close up of the belt boxes you posted.  

If the belt boxes are seen on all characters they will be mandatory and shown with the belt. This will help the builder determine placement.

The lines on the belt;  if they are present on all characters they will be L1. If they do not appear on all characters they should be L1 optional.

What is the argument for L2?

[pm07[TX]]

Mark, 
Are you thinking the belt lines need to be mandatory? I know we see them on the Officer, and Casian, but its hard to discern them on the NCOs. 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

I'm making more of a general statement about the boundary conditions for the CRL as I am not fully across the detail at present. 

You could pose the argument that if Cassian is dressed as an NCO, then that is grounds for inclusion. 

 

[pm07[TX]]

So maybe every belt has them?  I pulled this from a screen cap and it looks like he has them also.  

[pm07[TX]]

Mark, 
they appear to be on several from what I can tell. 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

From those pics it seems to be on every belt.

Just an FYI but we have been granted permission by the LMO team to proceed with the Ferrix variant called "Imperial Security Trooper" I have created a topic here 

I think once we are done with this CRL it should be a simple matter of copying this CRL with some adjustments.

[TeaJay[TX]]

The two recessed lines are on multiple extras and main characters. I have not been able to spot anyone close enough to the camera that doesn't have these two lines on their belt.

The only justification for not having them at L1 and making it an L2 option is to allow flexibility for members to use existing costume belts they may have for other costumes.

I'm okay with the two recesses being a L1 line item since all extras and main characters close enough to the camera to confirm have these...

It's important for us to also document the Rogue One style code disk without the recessed circle edge on the belt buckle as noted in the screenshot from @Blackwatch's most recent post.

 

-- 

Quick addendum: The dyes have arrived and I went out to get supplies for the testing process. I'm hoping to kick off the dyeing tests soon. Unfortunately, my wife just got sick and taking care of her and our 2 1/2 year old will be priority for a bit.

 

 

[Vanedor[501st]]

4 hours ago, nanotek said:

The lines on the belt;  if they are present on all characters they will be L1. If they do not appear on all characters they should be L1 optional.

Not sure to understand the point Mark. If something is not on all characters, then it becomes an optional(or alternate) feature. Not a higher level requirement. If you require it for level 2, that means that a costume that is not using this alternate version cannot reach Level 2 ?

[Vanedor[501st]]

2 hours ago, TeaJay said:

Quick addendum: The dyes have arrived and I went out to get supplies for the testing process. I'm hoping to kick off the dyeing tests soon. Unfortunately, my wife just got sick and taking care of her and our 2 1/2 year old will be priority for a bit.

 

Just curious. Any reasons why you decided to go liquid and not powder?

[pm07[TX]]

47 minutes ago, Vanedor said:

Not sure to understand the point Mark. If something is not on all characters, then it becomes an optional(or alternate) feature. Not a higher level requirement. If you require it for level 2, that means that a costume that is not using this alternate version cannot reach Level 2 ?

Simon, FWIW so far it looks like most of the characters have the 2 lines on the Imp belt. I'v been going through scrren cap by screen cap to check. 

[Vanedor[501st]]

28 minutes ago, pm07 said:

Simon, FWIW so far it looks like most of the characters have the 2 lines on the Imp belt. I'v been going through scrren cap by screen cap to check. 

Indeed.

I was more surprised about the general statement that say "If something is present on all character, then it's level 1". Then I wonder, what should be level 2 according to this statement?

Perhaps I misunderstand something.

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

3 minutes ago, Vanedor said:

Indeed.

I was more surprised about the general statement that say "If something is present on all character, then it's level 1". Then I wonder, what should be level 2 according to this statement?

Perhaps I misunderstand something.

I think I understand what you are asking and I will try to answer as best as I can. If there is enough distinct visible evidence to support a characteristic or feature then it lends itself to be a baseline requirement. 

The interchangeable argument is interesting in that this is not an OT costume and in the same way that other OT parts are not interchangeable with newer ones is an argument that could be applied here perhaps?

On the other hand does it make a huge visible difference to the costume when viewed from afar? Probably not!

I prefer to hear from all parties about these sorts of things because I tend to lean towards accuracy over other considerations. If I see something I cannot unsee it unfortunately, and that's when I fall back on the wider group to discuss, even if it hurts my brain to ignore what I see.

At the end of the day I'm here to facilitate discussion, ask questions (sometimes dumb ones) and try to make sure that the text/pics make sense. What is reasonably decided by the group is what will be submitted for approval.

I hope that helps! 

[TeaJay[TX]]

9 hours ago, Vanedor said:

 

Just curious. Any reasons why you decided to go liquid and not powder?

Rit's liquid is premixed and more concentrated. The formulas/recipes  to achieve their massive variety of colors will be easier to measure out the liquid by volume rather than powders. If powders are your thing, that's fine. 

Here's their statement of their liquid vs powder: "There is no difference in terms of color or dye performance. The liquid dye is already dissolved in water and more concentrated than the powder dye. So you only need to use half as much when using the liquid dye. Also, since the liquid dye is pre-mixed, this eliminates the need to dissolve the dye in hot water as you need to do with the powder dye before adding it to the dyebath. As a guideline, one bottle of liquid dye is equivalent to two boxes of powder dye."

For example, Rit does not sell an Olive Green. You have to mix a specific amount of 3 different color dyes within a specific amount of water (along with sodium chloride [any type of table salt]) to achieve the color provided in their formula/recipe. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

TJ I hate the RIT dyes, I fail far more often than I succed with them. i wish you the very best of luck with this. Please document your entire process, including any boiling and how many clear rinses you did, and whether or not you use salt or other chemicals. I find it makes a huge effect on how finished RIT comes out. 

Our  belt grooves discussion is valid, we cannot see every troopers belt, but all of the characters we can see close to the camera have the grooves in the belt.  I know the officer corps has the options on lines & boxes, but what we see here is what we see.  We see grooves, and boxes on all that were close enough for the camera to capture. In our Mudtrooper CRLs, which this is based upon, the belt CRL photo shows grooves, however there is no mention of the grooves in the text.  With all that said, I cant find any images of a belt without grooves.  For me this is an L1 feature. I have several belts, I buy slabs of leather and dye them and add a snap. Is it cheaper? in the end, no, but I control when things arrive and get done that way. 

 

Change Log 1.3

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.

Gloves shall have all logos removed.

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves are most accurate.     or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Imperial  Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.                                      The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                            The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2 1/2" (63.5 mm) by 3 1/2" (88.9 mm) by 1" (25.4 mm) thick

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

Belt is worn high on the waist, close to the bottom edge of the chestplate.

Belt closes with Velcro at the rear, right over left.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Belt is made of leather.
Buckle may have a very slight curve.

 

[Vanedor[501st]]

18 hours ago, nanotek said:

I think I understand what you are asking and I will try to answer as best as I can. If there is enough distinct visible evidence to support a characteristic or feature then it lends itself to be a baseline requirement. 

The interchangeable argument is interesting in that this is not an OT costume and in the same way that other OT parts are not interchangeable with newer ones is an argument that could be applied here perhaps?

On the other hand does it make a huge visible difference to the costume when viewed from afar? Probably not!

I prefer to hear from all parties about these sorts of things because I tend to lean towards accuracy over other considerations. If I see something I cannot unsee it unfortunately, and that's when I fall back on the wider group to discuss, even if it hurts my brain to ignore what I see.

At the end of the day I'm here to facilitate discussion, ask questions (sometimes dumb ones) and try to make sure that the text/pics make sense. What is reasonably decided by the group is what will be submitted for approval.

I hope that helps! 

Thanks for the explanation.

As someone who manage a garrison, I guess that I  have a different approach to this and I tend to value  practical consideration over those of absolute accuracy. I believe the legion wins by having its costumes more accessible, both in price and in ease to build. 

For example, I really like the ANH TK Stunt CRL. It uses its three levels to make the costume easier to make while still encouraging potential recruits to go above the baseline.

Yes, level 1 TKs aren't 100% accurate but they are close enough to it to not make a real difference.

In our case here, lot of members have classic black leather belts with no line they have been using with their Officers, crewmen, navy trooper, gunners, Tie Pilot, etc. These lines are pretty difficult to notice unless you specifically look for them. So I think it's a fairly good candidate for a level 2 requirement.

But I can certainly understand if you are thinking otherwise.

[TeaJay[TX]]

10 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

TJ I hate the RIT dyes, I fail far more often than I succed with them. i wish you the very best of luck with this. Please document your entire process, including any boiling and how many clear rinses you did, and whether or not you use salt or other chemicals. I find it makes a huge effect on how finished RIT comes out. 

Our  belt grooves discussion is valid, we cannot see every troopers belt, but all of the characters we can see close to the camera have the grooves in the belt.  I know the officer corps has the options on lines & boxes, but what we see here is what we see.  We see grooves, and boxes on all that were close enough for the camera to capture. In our Mudtrooper CRLs, which this is based upon, the belt CRL photo shows grooves, however there is no mention of the grooves in the text.  With all that said, I cant find any images of a belt without grooves.  For me this is an L1 feature. I have several belts, I buy slabs of leather and dye them and add a snap. Is it cheaper? in the end, no, but I control when things arrive and get done that way. 

 

Change Log 1.3

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.

Gloves shall have all logos removed.

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves are most accurate.     or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Imperial  Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.                                      The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                            The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2 1/2" (63.5 mm) by 3 1/2" (88.9 mm) by 1" (25.4 mm) thick

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

Belt is worn high on the waist, close to the bottom edge of the chestplate.

Belt closes with Velcro at the rear, right over left.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Belt is made of leather.
Buckle may have a very slight curve.

 

I like this latest text revision. I've started a new thread for the Rit dye testing here: 

I've completed one color so far and hope to do more in the coming days. 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Simon I am with you. Until I joined Spec Ops I never had a leveled costume, mainly due to the boot and calf size. 

There will always be those members who will go to the Nth degree for accuracy. Others may troop one time a year at night in a Mardi Gras parade.  We have several troopers like that here in Bast Alpha. 

TJ thanks for doing the dye tests. Thats going to help a ton of people. 

So, if we are in agreement, then we can close out the Gloves and Belt sections. Please let me know if there is further discussion on these topics before we move on. 

 

Change Log 1.3 (Final)

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.                                   

Gloves shall have all logos removed.                                                                                   

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves  or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.    The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                        

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

Buckle may have a very slight curve.

[Vanedor[501st]]

Hello David,

In your latest version, I see no mention of the groove/lines for the belt for level 1 or 2. Is it intentional?

For reference, here's the wording for the level 2 requirement of the IOC non-saga Imperial Officer.

Quote

Belt has a groove at the top and bottom edge along the length of the belt.

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

i forgot, I will add that. 

Change Log 1.4

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.                                   

Gloves shall have all logos removed.                                                                                   

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves  or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.    The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                        

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

Belt has a groove along the top and bottom edge along the length of the belt. 

Buckle may have a very slight curve.

 

 

[pm07[TX]]

I do like the belt edge being optional. 

[Detaleader[501st]]

Hey folks! Great work on this draft so far everyone

Just a quick thought on the Belt Grooves: It looks like some detachments make them L1 mandatory, while others make them L2. This seems a bit confusing in my opinion, particularly for new costumers. However, I think putting the groove in L2 is probably the better move. 

I think having the belt boxes be integrated to the belt part is a good thing, it's very much in line with how the R1 TIE CRL does it as well

I think a point can be made that the grooves are part of the visual identity update that was done with Rogue One. So kind of like how some design elements were permanently updated for the "HD era", with that being the TKs, the rank bars and the belts, etc. 

 

Also I wanted to bring up something from earlier in the thread - sorry about that! I only looked into this costume starting very recently. I was looking around the show in regards to the mixed batches of dye on the uniform. I might have missed the post that made a final decision about this, sorry! 

I don't believe we should have any line about the hats, jackets and pants matching in color, as we have various examples of them not matching. The biggest offender is probably Skeen, a main character where the hat and the uniform are visibly different in color (hat being less saturated green). Skeen's hat matches Taramyn, but the Uniform matches Cassian. 

I do not think that this is a costuming error, like the TK with no tube stripes, but considering it is on a main character and a bunch of extras, I think it's a deliberate pattern. It goes to show the Aldhani group is not being supplied very well and the troops are in the middle of nowhere with no way to get to "nicer" uniforms.