Imperial Army Trooper - Andor - CRL Discussion

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Its a fair point , which we had discussed starting on page 3 and going into page 4.  These costumes were made en-masse and who knows what happens when you are doing batches of jackets, batches of trousers and batches of hats.  I agree that Aldhani was given the Imperial Reserves treatment, however I feel very strongly that if you are doing just one uniform-yours- you are going to mix one, and at most two batches of dye and go with that. Ive had VERY little success with dyes over the 14 years ive been doing this,  so I make one batch and hope it works. The fabric will take the amount of dye the fabric will take. With our current text the CRL calls for the fabric to match. Officer uniforms call for the fabric to match in weave and color, with at least some of the CRLS stating that the weave of tunic hat and jodpurs exactly matching.  Ours gives just enough room for slight variation in color, while the fabric must match. Currently there are two makers, IB and Jim Tripon making these, and soon there will be more. 

@TeaJay is experimenting with his batches, using provided scrap fabric, and we shall see how his progresses.  

Our belt lines, which we have no evidence for not being in place, are written as L2 so a person can re use a belt they already own without lines..  I'm making all new belts with the grooves in place already, its just a step before I dye the leather, so if it was a L2 option which later becomes an L1 (like with how the Scouts have changed over the years) I'd be ready for that inclusion. 

[TeaJay[TX]]

4 hours ago, Detaleader said:

Hey folks! Great work on this draft so far everyone

Just a quick thought on the Belt Grooves: It looks like some detachments make them L1 mandatory, while others make them L2. This seems a bit confusing in my opinion, particularly for new costumers. However, I think putting the groove in L2 is probably the better move. 

I think having the belt boxes be integrated to the belt part is a good thing, it's very much in line with how the R1 TIE CRL does it as well

I think a point can be made that the grooves are part of the visual identity update that was done with Rogue One. So kind of like how some design elements were permanently updated for the "HD era", with that being the TKs, the rank bars and the belts, etc. 

 

Also I wanted to bring up something from earlier in the thread - sorry about that! I only looked into this costume starting very recently. I was looking around the show in regards to the mixed batches of dye on the uniform. I might have missed the post that made a final decision about this, sorry! 

I don't believe we should have any line about the hats, jackets and pants matching in color, as we have various examples of them not matching. The biggest offender is probably Skeen, a main character where the hat and the uniform are visibly different in color (hat being less saturated green). Skeen's hat matches Taramyn, but the Uniform matches Cassian. 

I do not think that this is a costuming error, like the TK with no tube stripes, but considering it is on a main character and a bunch of extras, I think it's a deliberate pattern. It goes to show the Aldhani group is not being supplied very well and the troops are in the middle of nowhere with no way to get to "nicer" uniforms. 

People really shouldn't go out of their way to have mismatched colors on the three soft parts of the uniform. Ideally it's all dyed in the same batch for color consistency. If there are blotches in sections of a specific garment it should be addressed as best as possible for color consistency for that particular garment. 

In your screenshots with multiple soldiers walking at the checkpoint, it was raining during these shots and color varies because of specific components of the soft goods on various extras and main characters being actively wet. However, as you show with the Skeen photo, the wet weather isn't the sole reason of the color differences. 

On the production side of costume creation, due to the sheer amount of soft goods volume produced because of how many extras there were; I'm sure multiple dye batches were created, clothing was bulk dyed, dried, and cleaned all mixed together, then hats, tunics, and trouser were divided up among cast members based on individual size needs, etc.  

From what we know from an extra who was in these scenes, there were multiple things that were rushed in production, such as the Aldhani troopers were suppose to have shin guard on their boots but the majority were broken when they arrived, chin cups on helmets also cracking and breaking off (so not everyone had them), wet weather in Scotland making some scenes difficult to film, and that's just the beginning... 

I'm sure if you asked the production team and costume designers if they wanted consistency, they would likely say yes, but with multiple factors effecting that, it's never as simple as what people would like/prefer...

The goal in the CRL writeup for soft coloration is for those who need to dye their uniform, they should be doing it all in the same dye batch to allow for consistency as close as possible; if the hat is a slight hue lighter/darker, GMLs should be able to reference the episode and see that minor difference and make their decision or reach out to the DL and/or LMO for feedback in the designated GML/DL/LMO costume feedback subforum on the legion site.

[Detaleader[501st]]

@Blackwatch @TeaJay Thanks for elaborating folks! I must have missed it on the earlier pages

Ultimately, I can totally see your perspective. I would just like to make sure that nobody is denied clearance on the costume if different soft parts don't match in color, since it is ultimately a common enough feature on the costume. This especially if a costumer chooses to mirror a character on screen. 

I think matching colors should be encouraged, but not required. I hope that makes sense. The fabric type should of course match. 

Again, well done on all the research so far and thanks for putting the work in to get this drafted up! 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

I just wanna stop by and say thanks to everyone for their input into this CRL, it is very much appreciated! Keep up the great work I look forward to submitting this to the LMO for review. I also just wanted to let you know that I had a healthy discussion with the DL from IOC over including the soft version of this costume in this CRL and have applied to the LMO team.

I'll let you know what the outcome is hopefully over the next couple of weeks. 

[TeaJay[TX]]

1 hour ago, nanotek said:

I just wanna stop by and say thanks to everyone for their input into this CRL, it is very much appreciated! Keep up the great work I look forward to submitting this to the LMO for review. I also just wanted to let you know that I had a healthy discussion with the DL from IOC over including the soft version of this costume in this CRL and have applied to the LMO team.

I'll let you know what the outcome is hopefully over the next couple of weeks. 

So is the plan to have the full soft costume as a variant of this one CRL rather than a soft parts only (hat, trousers, tunic) have its own CRL similar to TIE Reserve (still in Spec Ops Det.) and then have the hard armor CRL that includes the soft cap and the helmet variant as discussed previously in this thread?

I'm hopeful for the latter as the armored and non-armored costumes are extremely similar to the TIE  Pilot and TIE Reserve concept. 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

1 minute ago, TeaJay said:

So is the plan to have the full soft costume as a variant of this one CRL rather than a soft parts only (hat, trousers, tunic) similar to TIE Reserve and then have a hard armor variant that includes the soft cap and the helmet as discussed previously in this thread?

I'm hopeful for the latter as the armored and non-armored costumes are extremely similar to the TIE  Pilot and TIE Reserve concept. 

My brain may be fried and I am not understanding what you are saying. Are you asking for two separate CRL's (Like the TIE reserve) or one CRL with the following versions:

V1 Soft Parts only
V2 Armor with cap
V3 Armor with Helmet

[TeaJay[TX]]

3 minutes ago, nanotek said:

My brain may be fried and I am not understanding what you are saying. Are you asking for two separate CRL's (Like the TIE reserve) or one CRL with the following versions:

V1 Soft Parts only
V2 Armor with cap
V3 Armor with Helmet

Asking for 2 CRLs...

1 for soft goods only

1 for Armor that has two variations Soft Cap and Helmet.

Others in this thread seemed to like this idea...

[bubuc44]

agreed with @TeaJay

2 crl 

[Fraserab[501st]]

They were classed as different "characters on set" I was designated as a checkpoint soldier for those of us that were given the helmets.

 

The soldiers with armour and just the hat were rank and file infantry operating outside the base.

 

Then the ones without armour were for those within the safety of the base as such. Atleast that's how it was explained to me on set 

 

 

I've just recieved my imperial boots soft parts and comparing it to my other stuff. The fabric isn't "exactly" the same but looks close enough to do the job. Construction looks spot on aswell.

 

For the previous comments about the dye jobs, yeah it all depended on what fit you not what matched. All 3 of my items were a different hue and we were also stood in the rain all day

[fb501[TX]]

7 minutes ago, Fraserab said:

They were classed as different "characters on set" I was designated as a checkpoint soldier for those of us that were given the helmets.

 

The soldiers with armour and just the hat were rank and file infantry operating outside the base.

 

Then the ones without armour were for those within the safety of the base as such. Atleast that's how it was explained to me on set 

 

 

I've just recieved my imperial boots soft parts and comparing it to my other stuff. The fabric isn't "exactly" the same but looks close enough to do the job. Construction looks spot on aswell.

 

For the previous comments about the dye jobs, yeah it all depended on what fit you not what matched. All 3 of my items were a different hue and we were also stood in the rain all day

^^^ this is me, for some reason i have an old profile and my phone logged me into that one and i never noticed

 

 

On 12/8/2022 at 1:01 AM, TeaJay said:

I know I'm jumping the gun and getting ahead of things a little bit, but I was wanting to get this started as the gloves are next on the agenda and very straight forward based on the info we know from @fb501's post above denoting that the gloves he had on-set were made by Dents... when reviewing the Dents gloves options on their site, it led me to only one option that it could be since the gloves have no upper hand adornments... the tops of the gloves are a smooth black leather... and Dents only had one model of black leather gloves with no upper hand adornments...

https://us.dentsgloves.com/products/daniel-mens-unlined-leather-gloves

---

I ended up buying a pair of these gloves a few months ago when they were ID'd. Here are some comparison photos of me wearing the gloves holding my hands in a similar position.

 

We can come back to this post when we nail down the shoulder bells and biceps, but just wanted to dump this info since I had the time to do so...

Yip I believe they are the exact gloves I have, they all came from a box reused from rogue one so I don't think they were the only ones in use

 

 

[Detaleader[501st]]

1 hour ago, Fraserab said:

They were classed as different "characters on set" I was designated as a checkpoint soldier for those of us that were given the helmets.

I've just recieved my imperial boots soft parts and comparing it to my other stuff. The fabric isn't "exactly" the same but looks close enough to do the job. Construction looks spot on aswell.

 

For the previous comments about the dye jobs, yeah it all depended on what fit you not what matched. All 3 of my items were a different hue and we were also stood in the rain all day

That's great insight, thank you! Out of curiosity, how common would you say the mismatched combinations were on folks? 

[nanotek[CMD-DWM]]

I just want to address the point of multiple CRL's versus versioning as the detachment already has taken the position that if the variations (or "characters") are essentially the same costume then we will use versioning. An example of this is the Mudtrooper where all variations are versions of the same costume documented as such. Another example is the Imperial Death Trooper where there is the Version 1 baseline and the Imperial Death Trooper Specialist which is version 2.

Therefore if this soft costume gets approved for inclusion in our library it will form Version 1 of the Imperial Army Trooper - Aldhani.

[Vanedor[501st]]

1 hour ago, nanotek said:

I just want to address the point of multiple CRL's versus versioning as the detachment already has taken the position that if the variations (or "characters") are essentially the same costume then we will use versioning. 

[...]

Therefore if this soft costume gets approved for inclusion in our library it will form Version 1 of the Imperial Army Trooper - Aldhani.

 

 

In my opinion, I think the armor / helmet on the costume makes it different enough to warrant a different CRL.

It's similar to the Imperial Crew versus the Imperial Navy Trooper. They are basically the same costume but the addition of the Navy Trooper helmet make them different enough to require two CRLs.

As for the helmet / cap version of the armored costume, it makes sense to me that they are two versions of the same costume. They have the same general look and feel. 

[TeaJay[TX]]

11 minutes ago, Vanedor said:

 

 

In my opinion, I think the armor / helmet on the costume makes it different enough to warrant a different CRL.

It's similar to the Imperial Crew versus the Imperial Navy Trooper. They are basically the same costume but the addition of the Navy Trooper helmet make it different enough to be different costumes.

As for the helmet / cap version of the armored costume, it makes sense to me that they are two versions of the same costume. They have the same general look and feel. 

I agree with Simon on this one. From Fraser's description of the non-armored soldiers being within the base/not in a heightened security state, it seems very much like TIE Reserve vs TIE Pilot.

I'll be a bit bummed to see a single CRL that combines all three...In universe, it feels like a separate costume to me, in episode 5 there was no need for the armor as they weren't on high alert, etc. In episode 6 all non-armored soldiers were in the confines of the base. That is why Andor and crew strip off their armor once they get inside the base to aid in the differentiation for subterfuge purposes even for a few brief moments as they take over individual sections within the base.

Also, having armor vs no armor seems like two separate skills sets and entry level to the cost of the costume.

I swear these scenarios scream for separate CRLs.

 

----

 

As a side note, I've posted a new video discussing the dye testing so far: https://forum.specops501st.com/topic/8801-dye-testing-rit-brand-aldhani-soft-goods/?do=findComment&comment=106079

[fb501[TX]]

14 hours ago, Detaleader said:

That's great insight, thank you! Out of curiosity, how common would you say the mismatched combinations were on folks? 

Probably every single extra. It was all about what fitted you not about what matched. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

We need to keep in mind that the final determination of which Detachment gets the soft version has yet to be made.  

Fraser Im glad we have your insight on all of this. It is tremendously helpful and cuts through to what was happening on -set. 

So, going back to our gloves and belt discussion, we are at change log 1.4 with latest revisions. 

I believe we can lock that down. 

 

Change Log 1.4

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.                                   

Gloves shall have all logos removed.                                                                                   

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves  or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.    The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                        

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

[TeaJay[TX]]

6 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

We need to keep in mind that the final determination of which Detachment gets the soft version has yet to be made.  

Fraser Im glad we have your insight on all of this. It is tremendously helpful and cuts through to what was happening on -set. 

So, going back to our gloves and belt discussion, we are at change log 1.4 with latest revisions. 

I believe we can lock that down. 

 

Change Log 1.4

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.                                   

Gloves shall have all logos removed.                                                                                   

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves  or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.    The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                        

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

We just need to add a line item for the two recessed lines found on the belt leather.

The two recessed lines are on multiple extras and main characters. I have not been able to spot anyone close enough to the camera that doesn't have these two lines on their belt.

The only justification for not having them at L1 and making it an L2 option is to allow flexibility for members to use existing costume belts they may have for other costumes.

I'm okay with the two recesses being a L1 line item since all extras and main characters close enough to the camera to confirm have these...

---- 

IOC tends to make this an L2 requirement, here is their language for it, "Belt has a groove at the top and bottom edge along the length of the belt."

Other than this all looks in order, thoughts?

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

OK WHERE did my text go?????

argh. Ok, ill add it back in. Again.  Sheesh. This editor keeps eating my text. 

Change Log 1.4.1 (final)

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.                                   

Gloves shall have all logos removed.                                                                                   

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves  or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.    The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                        

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

Belt has a groove at top and bottom edge of the belt along its length. 

 

[TeaJay[TX]]

1 minute ago, Blackwatch said:

OK WHERE did my text go?????

argh. Ok, ill add it back in. Again.  Sheesh. This editor keeps eating my text. 

Change Log 1.4.1 (final)

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.                                   

Gloves shall have all logos removed.                                                                                   

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U- shaped adjustment at the wrist. 

Dents brand gloves  or accurate replica of Dents gloves. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or a leather-like material.
Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
There are no loops on the belt.
A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
The buckle size is approximately 2 5/8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1/8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
Buckle is adorned with an Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center.    The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.                          

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.                                                                                        

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 2" (50.8mm) wide, 3" (76.2mm) tall and 1" (25.4mm) thick. 

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

Belt has a groove at top and bottom edge of the belt along its length. 

 

Looking good now! I've already started doing some homework on the trousers  -- I'm prepping screenshots for discussions now  

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

good deal, and as always my continued thanks for all the support everyone is throwing into this project. 

Im going to post this final version (CL 1.4.1) into the first post of this topic.  We can move onto our trouser discussion next. 

 

[neoakaj[TX]]

I know I am somewhat late to this but any help I can give I will be here now. My focus is this as just a soft costume for now, so where ever it goes(hope it stays here).

[pm07[TX]]

I view this like the Imp. Army Trooper. There are 2 versions. One 'armored', meaning helmet, one soft cap. Same CRL.  , Just broke down to 2 versions .  My feeling is this should be the posted the same way. 

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

21 minutes ago, pm07 said:

I view this like the Imp. Army Trooper. There are 2 versions. One 'armored', meaning helmet, one soft cap. Same CRL.  , Just broke down to 2 versions .  My feeling is this should be the posted the same way. 

Hear hear!

[TeaJay[TX]]

1 hour ago, pm07 said:

I view this like the Imp. Army Trooper. There are 2 versions. One 'armored', meaning helmet, one soft cap. Same CRL.  , Just broke down to 2 versions .  My feeling is this should be the posted the same way. 

Do you view the soft cloth only as a completely different CRL from your above statement?

I agree with you that there should be 2 versions for this specific CRL - one with soft cap and one with helmet, both having the upper torso armor cluster.

I think the strictly soft cloth only version should be a separate CRL. 

---

To elaborate briefly:

This costume should be considered like the TIE Reserve concept (CRL 1):

and these two variations of the armored trooper is like the TIE Pilot concept due to the upper torso armor cluster being present (CRL 2):

Softcap:

Helmeted:

[pm07[TX]]

TJ, 
I dont know why we cant have all three of the green version under one CRL,with 3 tabs. One for each version.  So originally the IAT had armor also until someone figured out it wasn't an actual IAT reference they used for the original CRL. The armor was listed as optional optional accessories.