Imperial Army Trooper - Andor - CRL Discussion

[TeaJay[TX]]

35 minutes ago, pm07 said:

TJ, 
I dont know why we cant have all three of the green version under one CRL,with 3 tabs. One for each version.  So originally the IAT had armor also until someone figured out it wasn't an actual IAT reference they used for the original CRL. The armor was listed as optional optional accessories. 

As I noted in this post, I feel like there are reasons both in universe and for legion purposes - 

 

I see both sides to the debate, but my opinion falls on the separate CRLs approach. If the 3 variations 1 CRL concept were accepted, shouldn't TIE Reserves also just be TIE Pilots as one CRL? The differentiator is the plastic armor vs strictly soft cloth. 

[Vanedor[501st]]

12 minutes ago, pm07 said:

TJ, 
I dont know why we cant have all three of the green version under one CRL,with 3 tabs. One for each version.  So originally the IAT had armor also until someone figured out it wasn't an actual IAT reference they used for the original CRL. The armor was listed as optional optional accessories. 

I'm with TJ on that one. Yes, it's the same character. They are all Army Trooper. But it's not the same costume and CRLs are about costumes.

The Armored version and the no-armor version have a very different look and feel. One is a "combat" costume. The other is a day-to-day army fatigues. They have two purposes. They have distinct identities.

I also believe it's the more established way of classing the costumes. I mentioned the IOC crew vs the Navy Trooped. TJ mentioned the TI reserve vs Pilot. But it's also the case with classic costumes such as the ANH Stunt TK vs the Hero. Or the different Vaders. Or even the clones of the same "phase". They all have different CRLs.

Still, I think the option to have different versions for a CRL is great. But I think it's best for only minor variations where the nature of the costume is kept. Which isn't the case here.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

This is good, honest, healthy debate, and Im glad to see it.  It irks me when a CRL or Standard is written and there is zero Member input. 

This is the first time this detachment has  defined a armored and non armored variant of a costume.  This is new ground for us.   

I am happy to report that this Detachment has been granted the non-armored, Garrison-duty version of the Aldhani trooper!  

So, going forward with that very good news, Id like to move on to the trousers, using the Mudtrooper as the base , but it will be completely rewritten. 

One question,( and I dont have D+ available to me at work right now where Im typing this) are there belt loops or a set of suspenders on the trousers? I am certain there are scenes on Aldhani with the tunic off around the camp, but I dont have reference pics in front of me. 

Mudtrooper Base text:

Pants

Black pants with double reinforced thighs.

They do not have visible pockets or other adornment on the legs.

Shall be moderately to heavily weathered.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Pants are made using heavy cotton.

 

Change Log 1.0 (Proposal)

Trousers proposal:

Olive green pants matching the tunic and hat.                                                                                                                  Fabric is a denim textured material with a visible weave.                                                                                                There are no visible pockets. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Trousers have a double-stitched seam running horizontally across the mid-thigh, visible below the bottom of the jacket edge.  

 

 

[Vanedor[501st]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

 

One question,( and I dont have D+ available to me at work right now where Im typing this) are there belt loops or a set of suspenders on the trousers? I am certain there are scenes on Aldhani with the tunic off around the camp, but I dont have reference pics in front of me. 

I checked the three Aldhani episodes. 

Most of the time we can't see the upper part of the pants because it's covered by the tunic.

In the camp scenes you mention, they are not in uniform yet so we can't use them. The pants they use are very different.

The only exception is Cassian himself when he removes his tunic. We do see he is wearing a brown belt.

 

I can't see any loop on the pants. As for the belt, I don't believe this is something we can consider as representative for the costume of the Aldhani Imperial Troopers. 

While someone such as Fraser could tell if it actually had belt loops, Imo since they aren't seen, I would just make no mention of a presence/absence of belt loops for the pants in the CRL. Even for level 2.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Thank you Simon!! I agree this is something Cassian wore for the show only. 

Great suggestion. @fb501 can you give us any insight on what kept the trousers up in place? 

 

 

[Vanedor[501st]]

2 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

This is good, honest, healthy debate, and Im glad to see it.  It irks me when a CRL or Standard is written and there is zero Member input. 

I guess it does help when the base product is good. Andor is such an excellent series 🙂

 

 

[TeaJay[TX]]

For the trousers/pants a few important things to note are the front seams that contain an extra layer, maybe even two layers around the upper thigh down to the knee as seen here:

 

It's important to note that this additional fabric section does not meet with/connect to the seam line along the length of the inner or out leg. Also in the photo of Nemik above, you can see what appears to be two separate seams at the top leg, which could denote two layers of fabric in addition to the base layer that surrounds the leg. This is what Vincent at ImperialBoots has added to his trousers.

I revisited episode 5 some more to see if I could find belt loops on the upper part of the trousers and I could not find a scene where you can see under the tunic. Likely best to not specify in the CRL for belt loops, etc.

 

 

 

[Detaleader[501st]]

2 hours ago, TeaJay said:

It's important to note that this additional fabric section does not meet with/connect to the seam line along the length of the inner or out leg. Also in the photo of Nemik above, you can see what appears to be two separate seams at the top leg, which could denote two layers of fabric in addition to the base layer that surrounds the leg. This is what Vincent at ImperialBoots has added to his trousers.

I revisited episode 5 some more to see if I could find belt loops on the upper part of the trousers and I could not find a scene where you can see under the tunic. Likely best to not specify in the CRL for belt loops, etc.

I agree - not visible when worn with the costume = we shouldn't really care for belt or suspenders. The jacket should overlap the pants enough at pretty much at all times for it not to matter. 

Bonus shot where you can nicely see the seams + a more natural light to show the uniform color 

 

And another behind the scenes shot I just found, for color consistency: 

[Detaleader[501st]]

17 hours ago, pm07 said:

TJ, 
I dont know why we cant have all three of the green version under one CRL,with 3 tabs. One for each version.  

I agree with this. 

As far as I understand the TIE Reserve only exists as a CRL because they wanted it to be under JRS, when the Crewman costume was IOC, despite being essentially the same costume. 

Since here, the Aldhani troops of various armor level would still fall in the same detachment, I don't think they should be split up. 

Version 1: Soft Parts only + Hat

Version 2: Armor + Hat 

Version 3: Armor + Helmet 

 

@Vanedor I can certainly see your reasoning, but I think a big part of that is legacy Legion politics from before the tabs option on costumes existed.

If I look at this from a "production" standpoint - or at least how I imagine it would be - since so many parts are shared it might as well be one costume with accessories to "stretch" the available resources to look like more variety. 

As far as I care Hero/Stunt TK for example could be one CRL with variant tabs, based on the amount of exact parts reuse.

 

[TeaJay[TX]]

2 hours ago, Detaleader said:

I agree - not visible when worn with the costume = we shouldn't really care for belt or suspenders. The jacket should overlap the pants enough at pretty much at all times for it not to matter. 

Bonus shot where you can nicely see the seams + a more natural light to show the uniform color 

 

And another behind the scenes shot I just found, for color consistency: 

Great BTS shots. Taramyn's costume has always stood out to us as the most unique for the hero characters as his uniform is much more tan than any of the others in Andor's crew. Skeen's costume is also one that was a bit more on the tan side depending on which part of his uniform you're looking at.

I really like your first photo showing the additional fabric on the upper thighs to just below the knee. This is an excellent image! The top of the additional fabric on the leg is wider at the top and narrows some when it reaches below the knee... looks extremely close to the ImperialBoots trousers, nice.

[pm07[TX]]

10 hours ago, Vanedor said:

I guess it does help when the base product is good. Andor is such an excellent series 🙂

 

 

 Its helps that we have some great quality video to see the details. lol

[pm07[TX]]

@TeaJay    Hmmm. That almost looks like a internal knee pad pocket like those built into some of my LE and Mil work uniforms. Great catch! 

The ICAT Pants have a similar pocket/Patch also 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I wear my ICAT trousers all the time at work so I can break the color down before I submit for approval. The knee reinforcement on the ICAT is a double layer added to the trouser leg.  This Aldhani trooper goes down to mid shin, while ICAT stops above the knee. These behind the scenes shots are impressive, I can never find these when I go looking for them. 

Based on my own experience of making a set of ICAT trousers with the reinforcements added to the front, and looking at the very clear BTS shot, the reinforcement on this trooper is a single piece of double row stitched fabric. My own ICAT reinforcement has a separate shadow and highlight that this misses completely, so this is a single piece of fabric. Which also means it was easy and quick to make up for an almost unseen part of the trousers. 

Change Log 1.1 

Trousers proposal:

Olive green pants matching the tunic and hat.                                                                     

Fabric is a denim textured material with a visible weave.                                                   

There are no visible pockets. 

Trousers feature a long reinforcement panel on the front of the leg from mid thigh to below the knee.  This panel is double row stitched. It does not extend to the side seams of the trouser leg. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Trousers have a double-stitched seam running horizontally across the mid-thigh, visible below the bottom of the jacket edge.  

 

[Detaleader[501st]]

11 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

These behind the scenes shots are impressive, I can never find these when I go looking for them. 

 

Draft looks good! 

The answer to finding behind the scenes stuff easily is to be terminally online LOL 

[TeaJay[TX]]

Pants/trouser details look good to me.

May not be a good time to hop back go the hat, but noticed this level 2 line item that may need to be removed because of how varied the rear flap height is on many troopers including hero characters.

• Rear flap is slightly lower than the crown heigh (lees than 4")

Here is a photo of the main four:

Skeen's in very high up in the rear, Nemik and Andor's are similar height, and Tamaryn's is the lowest.

Here's the soldiers (extras) playing games before the heist kicks off:

My thoughts would be to remove this line from the L2 requirements for the soft cap due to this much variety on-screen.

[TeaJay[TX]]

Pants/trouser details look good to me.

May not be a good time to hop back go the hat, but noticed this level 2 line item that may need to be removed because of how varied the rear flap height is on many troopers including hero characters.

• Rear flap is slightly lower than the crown heigh (lees than 4")

Edited December 22, 2022 by TeaJay
Double post, please feel free to delete. I do not have permissions to remove this one.

[fb501[TX]]

On 12/20/2022 at 2:32 PM, Blackwatch said:

Thank you Simon!! I agree this is something Cassian wore for the show only. 

Great suggestion. @fb501 can you give us any insight on what kept the trousers up in place? 

 

 

We didn't have belts if I remember correctly, might have had some elastic suspenders safety pinned into place if they were loose at all (pretty common for background extras) but I think mine fit me OK.

 

Found my gloves added pictures, the orange speckles are from the "privacy cloaks" we had to wear when not on set. They had orange numbers painted on them and it got everywhere in the rain (they constantly had to wipe us down before we turned over to get rid of marks)

 

 

[fb501[TX]]

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I dont know much about what goes on on a movie set, so Privacy Cloaks is interesting. What do they do? Why did you wear them?

TeaJay I can delete the L2 hat line about the back flap.

If we are happy with the pants, we can press on to the boots.  

I will come back to this tomorrow so we have time to get any more discussion in overnight. 

 

 

 

[fb501[TX]]

On 12/23/2022 at 6:44 PM, Blackwatch said:

I dont know much about what goes on on a movie set, so Privacy Cloaks is interesting. What do they do? Why did you wear them?

Basically big ponchos, you wear them when not on the set so paparazzi don't get photos of the costumes basically. We all had numbers painted on them so we could be identified by the crowd team.

It's the only time I've seen them used but heard marvel etc use them when trying to avoid spoilers.

 

Felt kinda pointless to us as we were half way up a mountain 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Troopers

Thank you for your patience, your endurance, your input and your attention.  

 

I guess we are done with the trousers, not much there honestly. 

We can move on to the Boots section. 

Base text for Mudtrooper:

Boots Jackboot or kersey boot style, knee high smooth black leather or leather like material. Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments. Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot. This need not be functional. Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed. Boots shall be tall enough to fit both shin straps. Boots shall be heavily weathered. Boots should form fit to the calf and not be loose.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Boots do not have a zipper. Boots are made of leather. But this is not a mudtrooper boot. Its a regular jackboot, shorter than mudtroopers, and more in line with any other non-officer. It is not heavily weathered, just normal from walking on whatever surface.  So lets look at the jackboot description, this is a direct copy of the IOC's bridge crew boot section of the CRL.  Change log 1.0   Boots Calf high black leather or leather like material. Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments. If seams are present on the shaft they are at the rear only. Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1". This need not be functional. Jackboot buckles should not be shiny/can be painted dingy grey or gun-metal color. Hobnails may be present on the front of the jackboots. Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed. If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black. German "jack boot" style boots are most canon. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Boots are made of leather.   So this is where we rely on the power of photos to tell the tale. Are the buckles actually dingy? On Rix Road they are clearly silver and reflect light, but what about on the trail on Aldhali?  And, are hobnails present? They are not on Rix Road, we have clear images of the bottoms of the boots there, but what about on Aldhani?

[pm07[TX]]

Here  is a shot of the back of the boots. 

[pm07[TX]]

The bottom of the boots

[pm07[TX]]

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Thank you Shane

these are great and tell the tale. 

SO, the buckles aren't exactly chrome. They have a bit of grit to them. And the soles are smooth like my old boots that I had re-soled.  I sure would love to know where they obtain all these boots from.  If they are actual, real vintage boots, or made by a boot supply vendor for movie use.