Imperial Security Trooper - Andor - CRL Discussion

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I think so since we know the stunt helmets were just cast. 

here we are at V 1.2

Helmet

An open-faced, flared helmet which consists of a dome with rim and helmet skirt.
A telemetry unit is attached to the right side of the dome and is aligned with the rim.
The telemetry unit consists of a rectangle box with detailing that should match the reference image. The telemetry unit is black.
The lower end of the telemetry unit sits out from the helmet to allow the goggle elastic to feed underneath.
A  raised lip covers the edge of the helmet rim.  The lip may be either molded in place, or added as a black trim. Trim shall not exceed 3/8" (10mm"
Metal/silver Imperial code disks are positioned on both sides of the helmet skirt.
The helmet is to be painted black to match the armor.
The helmet may feature a black chin cup with grey webbing strap.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The trim on the helmet rim is a black trim added to the helmet.                                              
The helmet has a webbing style head suspension similar to work hard hats.
Imperial Code Disks do not feature a notch or groove details.
Goggles and strap may be permanently mounted to the helmet, with the telemetry unit mounted directly atop the goggle strap.  

 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

Looks good to me!

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

Haven't looked to deeply at the colors yet.  Is the helmet the same color as Aldhani which is almost an Anthricite dark dark grey/black, or is is flat black?

[neoakaj[TX]]

6 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Haven't looked to deeply at the colors yet.  Is the helmet the same color as Aldhani which is almost an Anthricite dark dark grey/black, or is is flat black?

My eyes say anthricite 

 

edit: my wife reminded me I’m somewhat color blind haha. She’s looking and has a great eye for color, she is an artist who paints lizard puppets so she’s good with color

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

3 minutes ago, neoakaj said:

My eyes say anthricite 

 

edit: my wife reminded me I’m somewhat color blind haha. She’s looking and has a great eye for color, she is an artist who paints lizard puppets so she’s good with color

I know many went with Montana Gold Anthricite for Aldhani, or at least it was discussed,

 

[neoakaj[TX]]

Val says Anthracite is a good match

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

we dont have a place that sells MG paints anymore, they used to be sold at Michaels but they took all the stock out. Id like to order a can next weekend and see what it looks like. 

For the full effect, is there anything that needs to be done to the MG Anthracite, such as a grey or black primer, to give it its full color saturation? 

 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

23 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

we dont have a place that sells MG paints anymore, they used to be sold at Michaels but they took all the stock out. Id like to order a can next weekend and see what it looks like. 

For the full effect, is there anything that needs to be done to the MG Anthracite, such as a grey or black primer, to give it its full color saturation? 

 

I ordered some off home depot.  Even ships for free.

[neoakaj[TX]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

we dont have a place that sells MG paints anymore, they used to be sold at Michaels but they took all the stock out. Id like to order a can next weekend and see what it looks like. 

For the full effect, is there anything that needs to be done to the MG Anthracite, such as a grey or black primer, to give it its full color saturation? 

 

I’m ordering some Montana paint for my shore and I’ll get it as well to test and see if there is any other prep. 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

I also think the telemetry unit is a different color than the helmet and armor.  Those appear anthracite, while the unit appears to be flat black.  It appears a few shades darker than the armor.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

it could have been made up separately and screwed on later when the goggle strap was mounted underneath it, trapping it. 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

it could have been made up separately and screwed on later when the goggle strap was mounted underneath it, trapping it. 

That would make sense, and that would also explain in what way the goggles are "permanently" mounted.  

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

For the level two on the helmet... Reviewing photos I don't believe it to be work hat type suspension.  From the images of the helmet lying on the ground, it appears to be foam padded helmet lining.  It appears to lay flat on the helmet.  Similar to motorcycle lining.,

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

On first inspection it looked like web strapping going across the top and sides, but I believe you may be right, this is casting a shadow liked stacked foam with foam wedges on the sides.  Ill adjust the text for the L2. 

Helmet proposal V.1.3

Helmet

An open-faced, flared helmet which consists of a dome with rim and helmet skirt.
A telemetry unit is attached to the right side of the dome and is aligned with the rim.
The telemetry unit consists of a rectangle box with detailing that should match the reference image. The telemetry unit is black.
The lower end of the telemetry unit sits out from the helmet to allow the goggle elastic to feed underneath.
A  raised lip covers the edge of the helmet rim.  The lip may be either molded in place, or added as a black trim. Trim shall not exceed 3/8" (10mm"
Metal/silver Imperial code disks are positioned on both sides of the helmet skirt.
The helmet is to be painted black to match the armor.
The helmet may feature a black chin cup with grey webbing strap.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The trim on the helmet rim is a black trim added to the helmet.                                              
The helmet has a webbing style head suspension similar to work hard hats.  layered foam lining the inside. 
Imperial Code Disks do not feature a notch or groove details.
Goggles and strap may be permanently mounted to the helmet, with the telemetry unit mounted directly atop the goggle strap.  

 

[fb501[TX]]

12 hours ago, NoZoupForYou said:

For the level two on the helmet... Reviewing photos I don't believe it to be work hat type suspension.  From the images of the helmet lying on the ground, it appears to be foam padded helmet lining.  It appears to lay flat on the helmet.  Similar to motorcycle lining.,

The standard helmets we had for the aldhani troopers it was a suspension rig. The foam padding is probably for stunts (hence knocked off) as it would give them a bit more protection and stability 

[BigJasoni[TX]]

All, I'm back and ready to add a few details/ differences between this helmet and goggles and what we've seen previously.

On 4/24/2023 at 11:55 AM, Blackwatch said:

Troopers. 

Lets not get off track here. We will begin at the beginning, just as we did with the Army version.  The small components will be discussed only when we have finalized the discussion of all major components. Once those are cleared and locked, we will move on, BUT NOT BEFORE THEN. 

Agreed 100%. The Aldhani Trooper was one of the most organized CRL developments I've been a part of, so there's no need to break the mold. However, there was one quote about upcoming items that I do want to address.

On 4/24/2023 at 7:48 AM, Detaleader said:

Looking at the soft parts, this seems to be identical to the Aldhani Trooper, the fabric even has this brighter staining around the corners on pockets.

I reached out to my fabric pro (my mom who does this stuff as her retirement profession) and she immediately identified the fabric used in Aldhani and Ferrix both as oilcloth, also known as waxed canvas/ denim. I've done some tests and I almost hate to say that she's dead on with her assessment. We'll discuss this later; I've done a couple tests on some bull denim I have here.

On 4/25/2023 at 7:53 AM, NoZoupForYou said:

I do not see any differences between this helmet and the Aldhani other than what I already mentioned.  I do not think the goggles are permanently attached (which is a L2 for Aldhani).  In the riot the helmets get tossed around, fall off etc.  Ill have to rewatch, but I think googles come off in one shot.  The back strap definitely is not permanent as it rides up the rear of the helmet.

I agree 100% with Sean. Regarding David's comment:

On 4/25/2023 at 8:01 AM, Blackwatch said:

we had some evidence that there was something like 2 sided mounting tape on the goggle strap showing on the Aldhani troopers.

we acknowledge that these are on Aldhani. We were also told that Aldhani was filmed following the Ferrix scenes and further told that a lot of the gear was damaged following the riot. My guess is that the costumes got banged up and they glued, screwed, or taped the goggles down to keep them in place. Please keep in mind how many times we've seen duct tape used on screen to hold TK shins together, but we don't name it as an option. As I said in the Aldhani CRL development thread, there's no way for us to confirm any of this, so we need to determine what the intent of the costume designers was.

I also always take word of mouth assessments from those on set with a grain of salt given the NDAs they all sign. I have spoken with several actors over the last couple years, (Dominic Pace, Dmitrious Bistrevsky, and Paul Sun-Hyung Lee to name a few) and each of them just smile and say something like "the costumes were great" when you ask them a question about fabric, construction,  or materials. We should only develop these costumes based off what we see on screen, or if stuff leaks out from the makers. For example, though the costume belongs to the Sovereign Protectors, Shawna Trpcic slipped that the new Praetorian Guard skirts were made of microsuede fabric. Those are the only real nuggets we can take with us... their errors in judgement. Kind of like when the people who painted the mudtroopers posted pics of their paint.

So, back to the helmets, I think everything has been great so far. I really feel like we need to assess the liner inside the helmet though. The word "foam" keeps being used, but there's another picture of a helmet lying on the ground which appears to show 2" webbing straps going throughout the bucket.

It looks like foam around the perimeter and on top, but with 3" polypropylene webbing crossing the top serving as a suspension mechanism, keeping the helmet from fully resting on the head. This is actually a common application for helmets.

Next, I want to address the goggle straps. They appear to have constructed them much differently than in the past. These goggles do not appear to use the webbing attached directly to the goggles, but rather utilize the 1.5" elastic. Remember, the muddy goggles go 1.5" webbing, 1.5" elastic, 2" elastic. For reference see the muddy pic below, followed by the Aldhani helmet posted by Sean:

Also of note is that both the Ferrix and Aldhani helmets appear to use the Gentex style serrated buckles, but they're not black. They also appear to be twisted 360 degrees from how they are with the muddy which makes sense.

I just bought a few of these and will get them nice and metallic.

Next the chin cup:

On 4/26/2023 at 6:54 AM, NoZoupForYou said:

Has the chin cup been identified?  It appears to be just a run of the mill Rawlings chin cup.

I agree completely. This is what we all used for the muddy and yes, you can get them in adult sizes. I understand the comment about brittle cast chin cups, but again, can we confirm consistency amongst all the costumes. As an example, someone try to find a JSP 281-CSD-2PT 2-Point Chin Strap with Chin Cup for a Shoretrooper costume. I had to order one directly from a wholesale safety equipment distributor and it was on back order for nearly 5 months. So, with that said, I can imagine the practicality of recasting several hard to source cups.

However, all this discussion about the helmet, goggles, interior, but relatively little about strapping things together. Please take a look at the following pic:

Looks like the old Yugoslavian pack was raided again as a hardware donor and this time they appear to have even used the straps from it. That's pretty cool. They also appear to have taken a lesson from my playbook and attached the straps to the screw that attaches the code discs to the helmet. Nice...

You can grab one of the Yugo bags for $10 right now. This is an incredible deal:
https://colemans.com/vintage-yugoslavian-small-backpack

Finally, the goggles definitively have green lenses. We don't have that in the write up yet:

In the Aldhani CRL, we went back and forth on goggle lenses, but this seems pretty clear.

Anyways, I look forward to discussing the soft parts, because I'm coming up with some awesome stuff. For now, I think we need to wrap up the helmet, but definitely need to address the goggle straps, buckles, chin cup strapping and finalize the helmet padding/ harness.
 

 

 

 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

I’m in concurrence with everything Jason has said

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I see what you mean, the goggle strap is literally flipped inside out from how i was mounted to the mudtrooper. 

So, originally I saw the X stras across the top of the helmet as some sort of webbing, that was my initial call. Are you seeing foam all the way around the perimiter? I see what looks like a wedge inside near the ears to help hold it stable without wobbling, if that's actually what Im interpreting.    

Im not following you on the Yugo pack, but I do agree that the straps mount to the screws holding the ear disks in place, all of my open face helmets of the type are made that way. 

The lenses are tinted for the Rixx road security troopers, and it appears to be a uniform green tint. Thats no problem to add. 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Ok, so lets take a look at this.  its not a big change for L2.  Im going to write this as "similar to" because the real chin cups were casts, which MIGHT have come from a Rawlings cup. 

 

Helmet proposal V.1.4

Helmet

An open-faced, flared helmet which consists of a dome with rim and helmet skirt.
A telemetry unit is attached to the right side of the dome and is aligned with the rim.
The telemetry unit consists of a rectangle box with detailing that should match the reference image. The telemetry unit is black.
The lower end of the telemetry unit sits out from the helmet to allow the goggle elastic to feed underneath.
A  raised lip covers the edge of the helmet rim.  The lip may be either molded in place, or added as a black trim. Trim shall not exceed 3/8" (10mm"
Metal/silver Imperial code disks are positioned on both sides of the helmet skirt.
The helmet is to be painted black to match the armor.
The helmet may feature has a black chin cup with grey webbing strap.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

The trim on the helmet rim is a black trim added to the helmet.                                              
The helmet has a webbing style head suspension similar to work hard hats.  layered foam lining the inside.   3 inch (76.5mm) web suspension with foam around the perimeter. 
Imperial Code Disks do not feature a notch or groove details.
Goggles and strap may be permanently mounted to the helmet, with the telemetry unit mounted directly atop the goggle strap.                                                                                                                     The chin cup is similar to a Rawlings athletic chin cup.

 

[fb501[TX]]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:44 PM, BigJasoni said:

reached out to my fabric pro (my mom who does this stuff as her retirement profession) and she immediately identified the fabric used in Aldhani and Ferrix both as oilcloth, also known as waxed canvas/ denim. I've done some tests and I almost hate to say that she's dead on with her assessment. We'll discuss this later; I've done a couple tests on some bull denim I have here.

Do you have an image for the fabric and I can tell you if it matches the screen used fabric.

 

On 5/4/2023 at 4:44 PM, BigJasoni said:

also always take word of mouth assessments from those on set with a grain of salt given the NDAs they all sign. I have spoken with several actors over the last couple years, (Dominic Pace, Dmitrious Bistrevsky, and Paul Sun-Hyung Lee to name a few) and each of them just smile and say something like "the costumes were great" when you ask them a question about fabric, construction,  or materials

Difference is, im not an actor looking to be hired again. If you prefer I can stop helping or providing information based on the screen used items I have in my possession

[BigJasoni[TX]]

2 hours ago, fb501 said:

Difference is, im not an actor looking to be hired again. If you prefer I can stop helping or providing information based on the screen used items I have in my possession

Please no. Continue providing your valuable input. Me being a person who's signed countless NDAs over the years, and also being a person who's tried to pry this kind of information from others who spent time on set of The Mandalorian, Kenobi, ROTJ and several other LFL features, I know that information isn't typically freely given without an understanding of what's at risk. Since you don't intend on getting hired again, you've accepted that, but I would caution us all to remember that not every costume is identical.

Case in point: if I were speaking to some of the New Generation Stormtroopers who worked in similar regards to you on The Mandalorian chapter 15 (The Believer), they would tell us that TKs wear grey boots:

But we know this wasn't the intent of the costume designers. It was just what they had on hand at the time. That's why these guys are kind of stuffed in the rear.

So, while I trust your insight into the costume you wore, we need to be very deliberate in our selections/ requirements for this and other CRLs. Your chin cup was likely brittle, and the belt box you cited during the Aldhani discussion was likely cast, but we need to focus more on the appearance of these items rather than the construct which may have been different across all the actors. This is almost always the case while creating CRLs, unless we have specific found parts.

3 hours ago, fb501 said:

Do you have an image for the fabric and I can tell you if it matches the screen used fabric.

Regarding the fabric, I was going to save the conversation for our discussion on soft parts, but here's an example of Oilskin:

This is dark olive waxed canvas. Not green enough for Aldhani, nor does it have a twill pattern, but watch what happens and imagine it's behavior during common movement.

Here, I crumpled it up and released it. This is what I was left with.

What's cool is that after doing this, if you feel that there's too much wear showing, you can apply a little more wax, typically heat it up (I just rubbed it with my fingers), and then brush it down.

And this is what you're left with. It's pretty cool stuff.

On this last piece, I took a piece of black bull denim and waxed it myself. After I brushed it down, I was still left with a black denim weave that behaves very nice...

Very, very similar... nearly identically to this:

However, in my assessment of the above photo and others in the Rix Road scene, I can almost definitively say that I'm seeing canvas rather than denim weave. If someone has a better picture showing a clear weave in the fabric, please post it because I'm almost convinced they used waxed canvas for these costumes.

Also, before someone asks me, your clothes will not become sticky or waxy if they're made of waxed canvas. It simply provides a barrier against the weather.

Ok. I'll get to a few of the other posts when I return from the theater. I still need to answer @Blackwatch's questions about the Yugo pack.
 

[fb501[TX]]

That fabric does look similar in the weave atleast to what I have on hand.

 

I believe the original fabric wasn't originally green.

 

I actually believe it was a blue denim dyed with a yellow to make green.

 

Note the yellow and blue sections of the fabric

 

[BigJasoni[TX]]

10 hours ago, fb501 said:

That fabric does look similar in the weave atleast to what I have on hand.

 

I believe the original fabric wasn't originally green.

 

I actually believe it was a blue denim dyed with a yellow to make green.

 

Note the yellow and blue sections of the fabric

 

And that right there is absolutely perfect. That is bull denim. I've got plenty of it on hand and will gladly play around with it to get a match; but I'll do that for my Aldhani costume.

The Ferrix stuff on the other hand just doesn't appear to have the same weave. I'll dig around a little more with some screen caps, but this is what I'm seeing:

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Gentlemen, while I do appreciate the candor and insight, lets steer back to our Helmet and complete that before moving on.  Weve already come this far on basically re writing this helmet, Id like to finish it before we do anything else. 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

Helmet appears to have some form of spacer on it behind the goggles, but I’ve only seen it evident in one photo.  Jason noticed that.  I suspect it might be where the strap connects.