CRL Development - Imperial Army Sapper (Complete)

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

Patches have been found . Helmet has been ordered . Soon it’ll be on to the pack . 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

So what is everyone’s thought on the pack . I’m not thoroughly convinced that it has a pack frame . It appears to have a flat back face similar to the heavy weapons trooper pack . m

[RAIDER[COTG]]

I'm with you Neal.  It does not appear to have a frame.  That said…the way the CRL is currently drafted, it cites the Heavy Weapons as a reference but allows for a frame so long as the main body of the pack matches the art.  Are you suggesting removing that frame option altogether?  Thanks!

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

18 hours ago, Raider said:

I'm with you Neal.  It does not appear to have a frame.  That said…the way the CRL is currently drafted, it cites the Heavy Weapons as a reference but allows for a frame so long as the main body of the pack matches the art.  Are you suggesting removing that frame option altogether?  Thanks!

Yes I am . Having talked with Matt Nelson , who designed the 3D illustration of the Combat Pack and with Crookknights we all agree that the frame makes no sense as there is no evidence in the artwork to say their is a frame . 

Atleast when my pack is built it will not include a frame . 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Yes I am . Having talked with Matt Nelson , who designed the 3D illustration of the Combat Pack and with Crookknights we all agree that the frame makes no sense as there is no evidence in the artwork to say their is a frame . 
Atleast when my pack is built it will not include a frame . 

Cool. Just clarifying. Thx!

So my next question would be...can the “look” be achieved with a frame and possibly kept for Level 1 while adding that no frame must be present for Level 2? I looked up the HWT crl to reference that pack description (as this one resembles it) and it makes no mention of a frame for or against. What would your opinion (and everyone’s here) be on that?


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[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I suppose you could use the frame as a base if it’s properly concealed . I’d say get the uniform , equipment and helmet part of the CRL mostly complete then come back to the pack .

[RAIDER[COTG]]

33 minutes ago, TX-15293 said:

I suppose you could use the frame as a base if it’s properly concealed . I’d say get the uniform , equipment and helmet part of the CRL mostly complete then come back to the pack .

Indeed.  I was under the impression the pack was the current topic.  Going back through the thread, it appeared that the majority of the CRL has been addressed and updated (unless I'm overlooking something).

 @Blackwatch which pieces of the CRL still need to be tidied up?

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I believe the boots need to be addressed . I think it still has the German Jackboots listed and not the accurate Commuter boots . I have everything except the pack complete so far . 

[vonmoen[501st]]

4 hours ago, TX-15293 said:

I believe the boots need to be addressed . I think it still has the German Jackboots listed and not the accurate Commuter boots . I have everything except the pack complete so far . 

Can someone post a photo of these Commuter boots? Maybe a link to a vendor that sells them?

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

My Weatherproof Brand Commuter Boots . 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

hey everybody, my floors are done, I have my house back, and I am back!

Ok, let me catch up on a couple of things.   

......

Ok I read up on a couple of things, and I see what you are saying.  Matt Nelson did the original art for the commlink, binocs, pack etc.  He works with Crookknight, so the discussion could be made that his renderings would be intended to mount to one of the backpack frames.   Honestly, Im with you either way--I have a BSA pack and it looks wrong for this application.  Lets say for discussion I just edit out the part about the frame, how will it all hold together?  Neal I totally agree that the frame could be concealed- we have been making internally framed packs for a long time, but those have a sack around the frame. 

I made a Squirrel Girl tail a few year ago and put the whole rig on a back board made out of sintra with hidden straps that went under the fur suit. 

Would it be advisable to make the pack out of a luan board, heavy sintra, etc? That would remove the frame, and keep in kind with the art. 

Here is something my research turned up, I remember seeing stuff like this in old books.

https://huckberry.com/journal/posts/history-of-the-backpack  .  I need to make a mockup once I get my table moved back in place, but I have a few large sheets of heavy cardboard I use to mock things up and can come up with a protoype based on Matts renderings, without the tube frame. 

On the boots I have also received my commuter boots (THEY FIT!  Im size 14EEE and they FIT!) and I will modify the CRL to reflect this as well. 

ADDITIONALLY---I have continued to study the photos and realize that I made an error.  There is an image of a trooper with the "grenade string" on his back as well as the shovel. In THIS panel (below) the shovel looks like stamped steel!!!! it does not look tubular at all.  maybe I am wrong, but the shading does not look like tube stock, and the cheapest thing you can issue a grunt is stamped steel. 

 

 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I think once someone gets a pack together we can atleast get an idea on what works and what doesn’t work . I’ve currently got everything complete and together , minus the Pack . It’d be nice to see this CRL make forward movement . 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

im with you.  It looks like I dont have all the editing tools in the current forum setup that I had on the last forum, i had some pretty sweet moderator tools.  This one is basic, so it was easier just take text out since I cant do strike through or color change, etc. 

Under level 2 in the blue text I had put that the boots need to match source art , which "should" have covered the commuter style but I will set up the boots for level 1 jack and level 2 commuter, and we can discuss that and how that will shake out.  I found a pair pretty easy---that is NOT something I have said often in ten years of costume building! 

I carried the PRC-77 radio mount backpack and it was not at all comfortable, but has a similar appearance.  For now I will leave mention of the frame and how the boxes out.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/PRC77-PRC25-CARRYING-HARNESS-CARRIER-RADIO-BACKPACK-FRAME-BAG-PRC-660T-SEM35-/173280050729

ADDITIONALLY, this is another item to discuss.  In the image below you can see that the artist intended for some text on the tab.  it does not show in other panels because the tabs are too small, but this tab (highlighted) is clearly showing some sort of text.  I feel that this needs to be an option for the uniform since its represented here. I also agree (other arrow) that the pack has a slab mount. 

Everyone please go back through the document and make sure I have not missed something, or if you see something that needs to be fixed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I am familiar with the PRC-77 , I use to do Vietnam Reenacting and I was the RTO and had a PRC-25 and 77 . As for the boots ideally I’d like to have the Commuter style as the only boot option . As for the tabs I agree they should be an optional thing , I’d love to get some down the line . And as for the pack I was thinking of a flat back piece similar to how Crookknights makes his packs . Nothing fancy really .

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Alright…so @Blackwatch we seem to be set on everything but the boots and backpack primarily.  Here are some questions/comments:

1) I went back over the reference pics and I don't see any use of the jackboot style for this particular trooper.  If it can be seen we can keep it, otherwise I would say we need to take it out as @TX-15293 suggested and make the commuter Level 1.  Thoughts?

2) Imperial Patch…has a placeholder for Level 2.  Was there something in mind here?

3) Belt pouches have Level 2 requirements.  Did we have anything in mind for the chest pouches as well (i.e. are the bulletpoints regarding the number of pouches used a Level 2 requirement or simply just bulletpoint additions?

4) Backpack…don't answer any backpack stuff here lol.  Once we agree that everything seems good we will tackle the pack and its accessories full force.

THANKS!

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I’ll be ordering my pack from Crookknights this week .

it will be built off a HWT pack with NO frame .

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

On 8/19/2018 at 3:05 PM, Raider said:

Alright…so @Blackwatch we seem to be set on everything but the boots and backpack primarily.  Here are some questions/comments:

1) I went back over the reference pics and I don't see any use of the jackboot style for this particular trooper.  If it can be seen we can keep it, otherwise I would say we need to take it out as @TX-15293 suggested and make the commuter Level 1.  Thoughts?

Now that I have a pair of commuters and have trooped in them I agree that the commuter, a similar short boot with the same appearance, or a correctly bloused down Jack would match the source art.  My commuters look a heck of a lot like my boots Ive worn these last ten years but they are much shorter.  Ill add comparison photos below, original and this weekend with the new boots. 

2) Imperial Patch…has a placeholder for Level 2.  Was there something in mind here?

My brain has been a bit addled with the house reno and all. My wife made me a few sets, and Im all for it as an option for those that want it. She made them on her home embroidery machine.  I think  L2  placeholders got added just in case. 

3) Belt pouches have Level 2 requirements.  Did we have anything in mind for the chest pouches as well (i.e. are the bulletpoints regarding the number of pouches used a Level 2 requirement or simply just bulletpoint additions?

I dont think the level 2 requirement line got added in, referencing back to my reply above.  While It can be added in but I havent seen much of a difference in the pouches in the panels they are in, other than whats already described. 

 

Quote

  

4) Backpack…don't answer any backpack stuff here lol.  Once we agree that everything seems good we will tackle the pack and its accessories full force.

Roger that 

THANKS!

New boots

Original boots

https://i.imgur.com/DuHoMhc.jpg

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I updated the boot part of the CRL to reflect the commuter boot as the preferred boot. 

 

super happy to see the strikethrough and color options back! 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

Once my Engineer pack is complete from Crookknights it can be used as a base for the CRL . The Purposed CRL for the Pack is what i used as the base plus designs provided by Matt Nelson as well as studying each panel of the comic . Hopefully when it’s done we can move into the final stages of making this a real CRL .

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Good update @Blackwatch  and thank you for answering my questions.

Let's move to the backpack proposal text.  If everyone can just go line by line through the CRL and make sure what we have is actually in the art panels (and also see if we missed anything), that would be great...also considering variations and/or Level 2 options.  Thanks again team!

BACKPACK

The Combat Engineer Backpack is used to carry the fundamental tools of the Combat Engineer to successfully plant their explosives or breaching charges.

For 501st Approval:

The pack has 2"  black shoulder straps with rectangular black pads made from nylon, heavy cotton or leather. Four black rectangular boxes matching the size and shape of the source art are mounted to match the angle  seen in the source art. No waist belt is present.

NOTE: A minimum of two different types of demolition charges outlined below are required for approval. 

There are five types of demolition charge seen in the source art mounted on the backpack in different locations. Two different types may be mounted to the top of the boxes. The charge mounted to the sides may be mounted to the left or right of the pack.

All demolition charges and mounting straps are painted matching grey. Primer grey is acceptable. Webbing or other means of representing the mounting straps will closely match the charge color. No color "warning" stripes or LEDs are permitted on the charges or pack.

 

The right side of the pack shall have either an explosive charge OR a long rectangular pouch with flap mounted as seen in source art. 
An entrenching shovel , string of small charges  or both as seen in the source art shall be mounted to the back of the pack.
 

The first type of top-mounted demolition charge is roughly 4"- 4 ½" diameter with slightly larger end caps and is as wide as the backpack boxes. Both end caps feature 1" wide "coin slots" matching the diameter of the tube. Two grey mounting straps made of textile, plastic or other material are present on this charge.
A second charge type seen on top of the backpack is roughly 3.5"- 3.75"  diameter and longer than the pack is  wide.   The beveled ends feature a depressed area with a slightly raised lip, and  have 1" wide "coin slots" matching the diameter of the tube. Two mounting straps made of textile, plastic or other material are present on this charge.
A third charge type with flattened end caps slightly wider than the charge itself may be mounted to the right or left side of the pack. One Inch wide "Coin slots " are present on the end caps.
A fourth type of demolition charge may be mounted to the bottom of the pack. It is almost as wide as the pack boxes and features rounded end caps with a flat spot / depression at the ends of the caps.  A depressed circumferential ring feature is between  the end cap and the body tube.
A fifth type of small demolition charges may be  present horizontally along the bottom pack boxes below the shovel if mounted. These four charges are roughly the size of a can of soda, with a 2"-2.5" band around middle. There is an indented ring approximately 3/8"  below the top of the charge. The bottom of the charge is flat, the top is a dome and features a raised disc at the top of the dome. It is  permissible to use 2"-2 ½"  webbing closely matching  the color of the charges for the band to hold the charges together in a group.
Shovel

An entrenching shovel matching the source art may be mounted vertically to the back of the pack .

Right side pouch

A long black rectangular pouch may be mounted to the right side of the pack, replacing the demolition charge described above. The pouch is as long as the backpack boxes are tall and features a single snap closing the flap. Pouch will be stuffed to appear loaded. 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

Since there are several pack configurations what do we want to make the standard pack for basic approval ? Or do we want to have a basic pack that meets minimum amount of the various accessories ? 

[Scubacat[TX]]

I think it may be a good idea to have a basic pack that meets all of the requirements that are seen in all versions. Anything other than that can be seen as optional accessories then like we have for the different variations on the death troopers. Either that or we have one pack.


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[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

That was the call that Izzi had made several posts back: there would be one version of the pack,  which would loaded. I had originally written the proposal with an  "unloaded" version  [returning from the canyon] and loaded, as described above.   After thinking about it, I concur that the pack SHOULD be loaded to some degree. 

I wrote it based on the various configurations we see in the panels, broken down the way I described them.  I even found one panel that had a shovel and "grenade string" on the same backpack, so I altered how the proposed CRL was written.  To me these troopers  each carry a part of a complex explosive. Even their pouches are different.   The charges are different sizes and shapes, and not all have a shovel.  One has a box on the side that looks like an old antenna pouch. 

to me, from this panel it appears that almost all troopers have a top mounted charge.  The guy to the far left is hard to tell the way it is drawn, we cant see it but that does not mean its not there. 

Assuming the two paths for the pack, either a la carte as above or a single universal loadout. 

Here's a proposal for a single loadout, at least what I would personally want to carry:

• Top charge which spans longer than the pack is wide
• Bottom charge which is smaller than the pack
• Shovel, which will be flat, and not tubular. In a couple of panels the shovel looks like pressed / stamped steel with a bicycle grip added to the handle. Cheap! 
• Optional string of grenades which is seen more often than the box on the right side. 

https://i.imgur.com/M45LiWY.png

 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

Based on the general consensus and input from the forum I’ve been presenting these ideas to CrookKnights for the Engineer pack he is building for me . Hopefully by the end of the week a design will be finalized.

[pm07[TX]]

Would this work as the base of the Engineer pack frame?