CRL Development - Imperial Army Sapper (Complete)

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Sorry guys, these double overtime days are catching up with me again and I often dont get home until 930 at night after the commute home.

I had my replies all written out and the computer updated. Awesome. 

 

I just re-counted all of the black helmets (we wont go into the green helmets on this one) and the count is:

Cover cap placement:

Above strap:   2 

Below Strap 2

Both above AND below 2.  

The art is inconsistent , heres the proposal now and you can see my edits

Helmet

For 501st approval:

• Open face helmet whose base consists of a dome with rim and helmet skirt.
• The helmet skirt is to be smooth all around with no indentations on the rear.
• The helmet is black in color with a flat or satin finish.
• A black trim covers the edge of the helmet skirt and forehead of the dome.
• Hearing protection is mounted to the inside of the helmet per source art. 
• Black chin strap and chin cup
• Screw caps are mounted to either side of the helmet per the source art either above or below the goggle strap.

I know we have makers such as WTF that are waiting on word on how to proceed with the helmet.  Its in both locations, upon reflection and review ALL locations are correct.  I say we call it makers choice, and call the caps "up to the individual" with all locations being in the art. 

I would like to return the helmet proposal to the original language and keep the hearing protection unless we have input directing them to be on top OR on bottom.   Can I get further input on that please? 

 

On the chest straps the straps IMO should be mounted to the backpack shoulder straps to support the pack and keep the straps from slipping . I have velcro on my harness just to keep it on my shoulder . Unlike my real world LBE Im not carrying a load to pull down on my nylon straps and keep them in place.  Therefore I propose that they be mounted to the  backpack straps.  

I have further input regarding the backpack straps.  Almost all panels depict the backpack shoulder straps with adjustment straps.  I made this mockup, and I would propose the following for any Level 2 approval.

• Backpack shoulder straps should appear to be 2-part adjustable with a pointed part of the 2" strap overlapping the top half of the strap,  matching source art.   A 1" strap is seen on top of the back side of the shoulderstrap  passing underneath and then exiting the strap near the point joining the lower half of the shoulderstrap past the point. The 1" strap shall have a keeper below the point of the upper strap.  The adjustments need not be functional but should match source art. 

 

 

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

i knocked these straps out, a super quick and easy project after lunch. they match the art and if a person has a pack made up, the top half can be whipped out in just a few minutes and added to the existing strap to give the art-correct appearance. 

 

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

Although I agree with the thoughts on the two part straps for the pack  I’m not behind mounting the chest pouch cross strap on the pack shoulder straps . I don’t think there’s enough source art reference to definitively say that the strap should be mounted on the Pack straps or the suspenders although from a logical perspective I think the strap on the suspenders makes more sense . 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

@Blackwatch I'm ok w/ keeping hearing protection.  It's clearly there.  The screw caps are all over the place.   @Scubacat Thoughts on how to go about wording the requirement for those?

And clarifying those straps...you're suggesting that they be mounted to the pack straps (though not necessarily functional)?  They could also just be the functional pack straps themselves or no?

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

I was bored so I decided to try my hands at the string of charges . They aren’t perfect , made from 2 inch PVC and end caps . 

[Scubacat[TX]]

The hearing protection wording seems a bit off for me. I feel that we need to look at that as a different clarification. Let me look at a few things and we can look at it again.


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[ShovelGuy[TX]]

In regards to the hearing  protection it should ideally be worded something like this :  a round disc shaped pad covering the ears and mounted on top of the chinstrap 

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Sorry everyone, I got thrown a MAJOR life curve Friday and it took a bit to dig out. One way, or the other, in about thrity days there will be a very real, and very serious, conclusion, and I have no idea which way its gonna go.

Anyhoo, I think we are at an impasse on the straps. Backpack shoulder straps or Suspender shoulder straps. The art doesn't tell us which.   We need a decision to move forward.    

PROPOSAL Leave it up to the individual.  I realize this opens a can of worms, and it is a non-answer, but there's no evidence either way and in the end, its just a pouch mounted to the chest seen in only some of the panels prior to setting explosive charges. 

 I agree with the round disc shaped pad. Mounting to the top of the strap hides the attachment point.  Not all have the hearing protection, about half do, but it is a prominent feature inside the helmet.  On that note Im game for letting the member choose whether the caps are above or below the goggle strap. 

@Raider the straps I made are  load baearing and full strength, and ready to bolt onto my pack, made from two hunks of 2" black nylon stitched together on my heavy duty machine. The 1" strip is decorative but matches the art.  My length will be set when I build up the back pack platform.    For appearance for L2  A member can add a strip of pointy 2" black nylon, a 1" decorative "adjustment" strip, and the little cross strip "keeper" to any existing backpack straps. 2" nylon is super cheap and I used a ID neck strap for the "adjuster" strap 

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

@Blackwatch In regards to the hearing protection do you think it’d be wise to have it set up as an L2 Requirement ? 

Hypothetically speaking 

L2: One set of Circular Foam Hearing Protection covering the chinstrap mounting point on the Helmet skirt . External mounting screw/bolt  ( Holding Chinstrap and hearing Protection ) must be covered with black screw cap .

just a thought to have L2 requirements for the helmet match the one close up panel of the Sapper .

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

Since I don’t think it’s been talked about yet what should the pack actually be made of ? Should we stick with the theme of the Sandtrooper packs , being mostly made of plastic components , Vaccuformed , 3D printed and such ? 

 

Or follow the Sandtrooper CRL in saying : 

A loose interpretation is allowed , but screen accuracy is encouraged. 

 

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

On 9/13/2018 at 1:48 AM, TX-15293 said:

Since I don’t think it’s been talked about yet what should the pack actually be made of ? Should we stick with the theme of the Sandtrooper packs , being mostly made of plastic components , Vaccuformed , 3D printed and such ? 

 

Or follow the Sandtrooper CRL in saying : 

A loose interpretation is allowed , but screen accuracy is encouraged. 

 

 

First question...no we haven't lol.

Second...yes I think so.

The loose interpretation bit refers to the actual layout of the pack components themselves (not the material) if I'm not mistaken.  More of reference to what we've been discussing regarding the pack configs.

[RAIDER[COTG]]

On 9/12/2018 at 10:05 PM, Blackwatch said:

Sorry everyone, I got thrown a MAJOR life curve Friday and it took a bit to dig out. One way, or the other, in about thrity days there will be a very real, and very serious, conclusion, and I have no idea which way its gonna go.

Anyhoo, I think we are at an impasse on the straps. Backpack shoulder straps or Suspender shoulder straps. The art doesn't tell us which.   We need a decision to move forward.    

PROPOSAL Leave it up to the individual.  I realize this opens a can of worms, and it is a non-answer, but there's no evidence either way and in the end, its just a pouch mounted to the chest seen in only some of the panels prior to setting explosive charges. 

 I agree with the round disc shaped pad. Mounting to the top of the strap hides the attachment point.  Not all have the hearing protection, about half do, but it is a prominent feature inside the helmet.  On that note Im game for letting the member choose whether the caps are above or below the goggle strap. 

@Raider the straps I made are  load baearing and full strength, and ready to bolt onto my pack, made from two hunks of 2" black nylon stitched together on my heavy duty machine. The 1" strip is decorative but matches the art.  My length will be set when I build up the back pack platform.    For appearance for L2  A member can add a strip of pointy 2" black nylon, a 1" decorative "adjustment" strip, and the little cross strip "keeper" to any existing backpack straps. 2" nylon is super cheap and I used a ID neck strap for the "adjuster" strap 

Looking at the refs...the strap (and the decorative part you're talking about) seem to be for the pack straps, not the suspenders/harness.  That 4th ref pic w/ Junber ordering a TD and 2 running sappers...the 2nd face on one you can see the strap and it going under his arm while the suspender is below that and goes down to the belt.

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

26 minutes ago, Raider said:

First question...no we haven't lol.

Second...yes I think so.

The loose interpretation bit refers to the actual layout of the pack components themselves (not the material) if I'm not mistaken.  More of reference to what we've been discussing regarding the pack configs.

I guess we could put that subject to bed .  Basically it could be said that the pack and its components be made of plastic materials . May be VaccuFormed , 3D printed and other methods . I think plastic is gonna be beneficial for a few reasons , 

1. It’ll be consistent with packs the  packs that appear in the films giving it a more realistic feel .

2. It’ll last longer being a more durable material than other options .

3. It’s an easy to work with material . 

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

This shot, the packs look to be the same material as the TD's.  That's what we will roll with.

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

 

Hard to see but I’ve installed Round ear pads to match the source material.

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Based on these images the round ear pads would be L2. clearly the artist took the time to draw earlobes so not all have the earpads. 

Also @Scubacat this is the art you saw that has the markings on top of the tube, its one of two instance where it is seen indistinctly, but clearly not present on all tubes. 

Im all for plastic and  possibly fiberglass.  I think the days of luan plywood for boxes are past.  Mine is nearing completion and its Sintra (PVC plastic)  Personally after thrity years of working with resins, fiberglass, acrylic, PVC sheet and plastic, Im not sold on 3d stuff, ive cleaned too much of it up,   BUT hey, as long as the print lines arent so thick they can be seen in the photos, that would be up to the costumer and their GML for approval, and Det for the Level. 

Ive identified several pack layouts. One clearly has a large flat surface on top of the box, like its a planter lip. Some have curved "webbing" between the boxes. Others have a rectangle in the vertical valley.   We spoke earlier of creating three packs, and Neil had a proposal for L2 packs.  Since the art IS inconsistent on the details like the curved part between the boxes, vs some that have a sharp V, lets just leave it simple and leave that OUT of the pack description. 

 

SO- Returning to the pack layout, given what we have discussed thus far, and assuming that the L1 pack will have the top charge in all cases:  

L1 (Base):    Four boxes, top charge.  

option 1 pack (L2)   Charge on the bottom of the pack and shovel 

Option 2 pack (L2)  String of charges and side charge 

As @Raider suggested previously our pack layout should match our belt layout, however there is not a lot of variety if you are using the suggested pouches.  I put on the MP40 pouches on and with the dump I wound up taking pouches off to make room.  Last week @Izzy said the shovel should be on each. Based on art, Im not convinced, I thik it is on one half of the packs presented. 

 

Ok everyone, thoughts? 

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

So do we want the pouch configurations separate as 

L2 (Option 1) : charge on bottom of pack and E Tool . Pouches must be in [Insert specific configuration ] for L2 (Option 1 ) Approval 

 

L2 (Option 2) : String of charges and side charge . Field gear must be in [ insert specific configuration] for L2 (Option 2) Approval 

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Ive looked at my printed out pics, and I see its clear that there are two layouts-with and without MP40 pouches. Those wihtout MP40 pouches have the dump bag on he left leg.  The charges vary with the art, but clearly some do not have the MP40 pouches.  (exiting the canyon photo)

 

PROPOSAL

For Basic Approval: 

Four boxes with a top explosive charge mounted. 

 

Level 2 pack and matching belt pouches: 

(Option 1)  In addition to top charge, the bottom charge will be mounted as well as the entrenching shovel. The long black right side pouch may be mounted to the pack to match source art. 
Two black belt pouches are mounted on either side of the belt buckle near where the harness meets the belt. MA47 double handcuff MOLLE PALS or other black nylon utility pouches are acceptable.  Black Canvas or leather or faux leather MP40 pouches are located on both hips. Two  or three (depending on spacing on belt) black Molle Strobe type or magazine pouches are mounted behind the MP-40 pouches   

 

(Option 2)   In addition to the top charge, the pack will have a string of explosive charges mounted to the back as well as one large explosive charge seen mounted to the side of the pack. 

Two black belt pouches are mounted on either side of the belt buckle near where the harness meets the belt. MA47 double handcuff MOLLE PALS or other black nylon utility pouches are acceptable.  Black Canvas or leather or faux leather MP40 pouches are located on both hips. Two  or three (depending on spacing on belt) black Molle Strobe type or magazine pouches are mounted behind the MP-40 pouches .  A large  black  pouch with two snaps is mounted to the back of the belt.A large black side pouch  dump pouch  etc.  is located on the wearers left, behind the MP-40 pouch.  The dump pouch should have a leg strap to keep it in place. 

 

This brings me to the top charge, which I dont think we have discussed much.  In the art very few of them match, and currently I have two charge descriptions proposed.  One is wider than the pack seen in option 1 art above,  (its going to catch on EVERYTHING at a troop) and one that is the width of the pack seen in the same panel.  I also see different end caps.  Which one do we really want to go with to cut down confusion? I am perfectly happy using the charge that is as wide as the pack boxes. 

its pas midnight and Ive literally been staring at Star Wars images all day, I think Ill head to bed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

Sounds good to me 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

@TX-15293  Neal with Crookknight making the prototype pack, which charges are you going with?  Did you determine which top charge he will make it with? it will pretty much define the L1 pack.

Essentially which of the top charges will be preferred, (long or short)  or will we use both at troopers discretion? 

 

Also everyone my computer is acting really stupid. I spent most of last night trying to get online. Not only for here but for job search stuff.  Peckign things out on my phone just doesnt work half the time. 

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

@Blackwatch the design will be more along the lines of option 1 with both long and short charges  but will also have extra charges to cover option 2 . Crookknights production shut down for the Hurricane so hoping to hear more soon .

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

Update : Pack is in the last stages of Prototype development. Production should be done in a month or so . 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

awesome!!!!   Ive seen his packs. they are beautiful. I hope he had no damage. Ive been through every storm in South La since 2003.  Not much good to say about them.  

 

SO, is everyone happy with the wording as proposed?  Is there anything else we need to cover? 

 

If not, then I would like to turn our attention to exactly what we will call this uniform:

Discussion: 

The current proposal is called the Combat Engineer, which makes a modicum of sense.  Wikipedia- the knower of all things-  tells us that a combat engineer is a soldier who performs a variety of both construction and demolitions tasks under combat conditions. Engineers may build peacetime structures, and this is what most engineers do, most of the time when not deployed.   Other terms for this specialized field soldier are "pioneer" or "sapper" and each Nation treats the term differently.  Within the US Army, Sapper is a specially trained soldier, whos primary MOS is not combat demolitions or building earthworks, revetments, bunkers or large defilades for armored vehicles.  They may be regular Infantry that received intensive skills training, and are typically entitled to wear that nations skill tab, patch or other skill marker. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_engineer

Id like to hear from the Command Staff in addition to anyone interested in this project, since it will be the term presented to the LMO. 

 

Will we be calling this a Combat Engineer ,  Sapper or another term, maybe even a combat demolitions team? 

 

 

 

[ShovelGuy[TX]]

I’m hopeful on how it’ll turn out considering how nice their other packs are .

 

I think a different CRL name  will help distinguish this Costume from the current Army Engineer CRL both in Name and Appearance.  Personally I like Imperial Army Sapper . 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Im with you on this, and we seem to be the first two.