tipperaryred

I think the white/grey spectrum is one of the trickiest parts of both of these costumes. Between the different shades on the armour and the off-white of the flightsuit, it can look very different depending on the lighting and perspective. In some of the distant shots it looks like the entire upper half of the helmet is light grey from the front, yet in the close ups you can clearly see that it's only the swooping pattern on the upper cheeks. And now that you've said it, I'm tempted to think that the triangle border is grey too...

Looks pretty good to me! Good luck Antonio!

Honestly mate, it makes our life so much easier when people do jump in on CRL builds or revisions with new perspectives. There are few worse feelings as a DCA than spending months or even years on a CRL, with only 2 or 3 people contributing, only for the finished CRL to go live and folks start queuing up to list the mistakes 😅 So genuinely, thanks a million for the input, and if you get a chance to check back in again before we finish this revision, please do let us know if you have any more feedback.

Always great to have the feedback Gary, especially from vendors who bring a very different perspective to most of our staff and members. For the helmet I'll suggest another compromise version, and I promise it's not awkwardness, there is method to my madness. 😅 "Original Trilogy TIE Pilot style helmets are not permitted. There are also no screws visible on the helmet." Firstly the Del text has always been a bit sprawling down the page(s), and it is quite off putting for new builders. So wherever possible I don't want to give a new line to every small detail. But even more importantly I'd like to keep those two points together, because they are actually related. The screws are one of the quickest ways to spot an OT TIE helmet, and for many members it can sometimes be a challenge to differentiate between a OT TIE, R1 TIE and an Inferno. I think it's important that members know that if they see screws in a TIE helmet, it is likely an OT helmet and therefore should not be clearable even if they removed the screws. On the subject of "should" however, I can absolutely imagine some of our members arguing that point, so I absolutely agree with your suggestion of "are" instead. For the armour sides and the flight suit fabric, I think the problem is the same one for both. In an ideal world we know the closest material, but want to give GMLs and builders the flexibility to use something that has the same appearance, but is either more accessible or easier to wear. You correctly point out that a small number of GMLs might not look past the one example we give, but I don't believe that this would be a correct interpretation on their part. The visual references should always be the first consideration, and if a costume looks right while also meeting the flexible definition of "a suitably heavy fabric", then a GML would be failing in their duties if they failed a flight suit just because it wasn't made of a material that is explicitly given as only an example. Adding black denim into the list of examples won't necessarily help solve that problem, it will only give awkward people two things to fixate on instead of one. We can't realistically list every possible material that each part could be constructed from just to account for an awkward minority who might misread it. In my experience the vast majority of GMLs want to help their members get their costumes over the line, so we want to give them the flexibility in the new text to allow this. In saying all that (my apologies for this turning into a small essay!), there's no reason at all why we can't tweak the text a little further as you suggest, and try to reduce the chances of the worst case scenario happening! I'd also be happy to put "non-textured leather" in as an example in the context of the new text below. "One-piece flight suit is made out of a canvas or similar suitably heavy material fabric. A canvas style fabric is most suitable, but other fabrics consistent with the visual references are entirely acceptable." "Chest and back plate meet flush at the sides under the arms. This is done with a third plate that bridges the gap between the front and back armor parts. This is best achieved with material matching the rest of the hard armor parts, but more flexible options are also accepted so long as the visual appearance matches the rest of the armor (eg. non-textured black leather)."

Excellent, good to have the clarity on the name. We'll need to put together some decent screen grabs to prove it, but it would largely appear to be an unarmoured Imperial Security Trooper wearing the white ISB tactical armour. Similarly we see an ISB officer being given some of the same armour (the torso armour) to wear over their ISB tunic. I would therefore be surprised if the placement didn't follow those of the pre-existing underlying costumes. Specifically the ISB Tactical Agent to SpecOps to join the underlying Imperial Security Trooper costume; and the Armoured ISB Officer to IOC to join the ISB uniforms (eg. Dedra). The same logic was used with the Star Wars Rebels armoured ISB officers such as Kallus, who wore their armour over their officers' tunics and were subsequently placed with IOC. If this is how it plays out, the only minor complication would be that the torso armour needs to be consistent across the two costumes. I'm sure however that we'll have no trouble coordinating that if that is the direction that the LMOs decide on.

Thanks Ryan, that's a good shout. Realistically the pauldron is going to be pushed all over the place if it's sitting on top of the straps/armour. Iden's CRL doesn't actually specify its position relative to the armour straps, so maybe it's safest just to omit that line altogether to avoid confusion? Shoulder Pauldron Worn on the right shoulder, matching references. Made from leather or leather-like material. The base of the pauldron is black. On top of the black base are three red stripes placed evenly apart. The pauldron may be worn under or over the shoulder straps of the armour. The outer edge of the pauldron should be approximately in line with the shoulder seam of the flight suit. The pauldron may be attached to the shoulder of the flight suit with any discrete method, including velcro, magnets or sewing.

Thanks for getting back again Gary 🙂 I'm doubling up on GML duties too, so I can certainly see that side of it as well. Solid point on the screw wording - if you feel it's still a little ambiguous then definitely no harm adding an "and" or an "also" in there to remove any doubt. Perhaps something like, "Original Trilogy TIE Pilot style helmets are not permitted. There should also be no screws visible on the helmet." For the other two points, we could potentially make some minor tweaks like below: "One-piece flight suit is made out of a canvas or similar suitably heavy material fabric (eg. canvas). Perhaps just reordering the sentence like that to give prominence to the "suitably heavy fabric" will be enough to point GMLs in the correct direction? As for the armour: "Chest and back plate meet flush at the sides under the arms. This is done with a third plate that bridges the gap between the front and back armor parts. This may be achieved with a solid plate or a non textured fabric, so long as the visual appearance matches the armor." If we make this tweak, then perhaps it would make sense to make the solid plate option a Level 2 requirement? What do you think @Blackwatch?

That's absolutely a lot closer, great work. The shoulder piece that David picked out above is a particularly nice reference point, and I'd agree with David's point that the smooth gradients between colours are still going to be tricky to get spot on without an airbrush. However I think your torso armour is the closest you've gotten to a solid match so far, so maybe tweak that a little further and come back to us? If you can then replicate that on the other armour parts you'll be most of the way there. Great to see the progress 🔥

I like this a lot better now, I think we may be good to lock it in.

Thanks for the input Gary! To address each in order: 1) The line about the OT style pilot helmets is two separate sentences. The first says exactly what you suggest, "Original Trilogy TIE Pilot style helmets are not permitted". We don't want to leave any grey areas there - if it is an OT helmet, it shouldn't clear even basic clearance. The second sentence about not having any screws visible is supplementary to that. To put it another way, we aren't saying OT helmets aren't allowed BECAUSE there should be no visible screws. We're saying OT helmets aren't allowed AND there should be no visible screws. 2) I think this could be a useful piece of clarification. In truth it is very difficult to get a clear visual reference on this part of the costume, but where we do see it, it does appear to look very similar to the rest of the armour. I would be happy to suggest wording along those lines, "This is done with a third plate that bridges the gap between the front and back armor parts, and matches the rest of the torso armor in appearance". That way folks aren't tied down to using the exact same material, but can use something more practical so long as they ensure that it blends in. Would that read better? 3) In fairness what we know as "canvas" comes in a huge variety of types. My own flight suit is made from canvas and is extremely comfortable to wear, in almost all weather conditions (in Ireland at least!). The key part here is that we want to leave vendors and troopers alike some degree of flexibility in what they can wear. At the end of the day we are looking at a simulated texture used in a game, which was never in canon worn by a real human being. The only things we can go on are the appearance and the fit. As far as the appearance goes, there is a very noticeable weave that closely resembles canvas, hence the guidance we give. The fit does not have a lot of bunching or hanging that would be associated with lighter materials, so again is consistent with something like canvas. However the key part of the text is, "or similar heavy material". If you find a type of denim that fits right, doesn't hang or bunch, and looks similar in appearance to what we see in the game, there is nothing in the CRL text stopping a GML from clearing that. Thanks again, and please do jump back in if you want to follow up on any of that further or spot some other areas worth looking at.

While we wait for Kevin, it is worthwhile jumping back into the grunt CRL. As Saxon's text is now complete, I have copied and pasted it above, and we can go through it item by item in the usual fashion. Starting as usual with the helmet, here is Gar Saxon's text as a starting point: Helmet Imperial Mandalorian Super Commando style helmet, matching visual references from Star Wars Rebel animated series. Helmet should be painted and weathered to match references. Weathering/chipping of the white paint should match the light grey paint used elsewhere on the helmet. Helmet dome and face plate to be painted red as per references. Rear plate, raised rear panel detailing, the upper cheek plates, left ear plate and teeth must be painted light grey as per references. Helmet dome and face plate, lower cheek plates, raised rear panel, must be painted white (or a lighter shade of grey), as per references. Additional detailing on rear plate must be painted white. The ear caps and antennae may be painted light grey or a weathered white. All recessed panel lines are black or dark grey. There is an inverted white outlined red triangle with a white outline in the center of the forehead. This should be painted. A weathered decal may be acceptable if achieving the look of having been painted. Both visor pieces are black, and obscure the wearer's face. The lower visor tapers in slightly to its narrowest point at the bottom. The left ear cap is oval, with a raised circular detail at the top, and a slightly tapered antenna with a circular profile. The right ear cap is angled at the top, with a narrower half oval at the base. There is an angled recessed panel line in the bottom right corner of the cap. The cap has a raised circular detail at the top, and two antennae. The rear antenna matches that on the left side, while the front antenna is significantly taller. Twin recessed panel lines (1 & 2) run around the upper visor, angle up over the ear pieces, and join together in horizontal lines across the back of the helmet. A third panel line (3) runs parallel and just above the upper of these two lines (2), joined to this same upper panel line at both ends, and running horizontally across the central portion of the rear of the helmet. The distance between 2 and 3 is approximately half the distance between lines 1 and 2 at the rear of the helmet. Additional panel lines vertically bisect each ear plate, and run around their edges. The rear bottom lip of the helmet has a raised, curved rim, running between the rear edges of each ear plate. The back plate has a raised rectangular panel with details to match references. These are long vertical oblongs on both sides, a circle in the lower center, and a double striped rectangle within another rectangle in the upper center. Details are outlined by recessed panel lines. The back plate is light grey, but has white detailing painted on either side of the raised rectangular panel. There are six teeth, three on each side of the lower visor, with the recesses painted black or dark grey. I will take some additional high resolution screens grabs to supplement our reference images, but all of the existing images seem to point to this helmet being identical to that worn by Gar Saxon. The only difference being that the dome and face plate of the helmet is painted white on the grunt, in place of the red paint seen on Saxon's helmet. I have not yet been able to spot any other difference.

There are currently two approvable approaches. 1) You can attach the lower half of the pouch to the overbelt, either by threaded it through a loop in the back of the pouch, or by using velcro, or a combination of both (as you note above). 2) Or you can attach the upper half of the pouch to the waist strap that run around the back of the tactical vest. Again, you can use a loop, velcro, or a combination of both. Personally I prefer this method as it lets the pouch hang down naturally - it is less likely to twist around. However it is perfectly possible to make either approach work.

Yes, as David noted there isn't all that much variation. Our current plan is that as soon as we have finalised the Saxon CRL, we will copy and paste it over to the Imperial Super Commando grunt thread and go though it line by line to see where it diverges. 95% of the work will already have been done before then, so it should be a much faster process to get the second CRL live.

First draft of the optional shoulder pauldron below. The appearance is quite similar to Iden's (red on black, leather-like appearance), but is much shorter with only 3 red bars instead of 5. It stops at the shoulder seam of the flight suit instead of extending out over the shoulder as per the "usual" Star Wars shoulder pauldron. No straps are visible running under the arm, and as this pauldron stops at the shoulder seam this method of attachment would be impractical anyway. I would suggest allowing flexibility of attachment with any "discrete" method, eg. velcro, magnets, or even sewn directly onto the shoulder of the flight suit. We see the pauldron sitting on top of the armour's shoulder straps in the main artwork, but in the supporting references the inside edge of the pauldron can be seen to be tucked in under the shoulder straps at times. I would suggest allowing both ways of wearing the pauldron, at the wearer's preference. Shoulder Pauldron Worn on the right shoulder, matching references. Made from leather or leather-like material. The base of the pauldron is black. On top of the black base are three red stripes placed evenly apart. The pauldron may be worn under or over the shoulder straps of the armour. The outer edge of the pauldron should be approximately in line with the shoulder seam of the flight suit. The pauldron may be attached to the shoulder of the flight suit with any discrete method, including velcro, magnets or sewing.

Sound, I think all that's needed on this first pass now is to detail the optional components. As far as I can tell, it should be: Shoulder Pauldron Chest Box Hoses (Maybe? They aren't featured in the artwork) E-11 Blaster

And sorry yes, I wasn't clear on what I meant about the E-11. I know there are shots of Del with one, and it has always been an optional blaster for him. But the CRL has also always specified that he can never carry it in the holster - that it has to be empty. The image I linked to above though clearly shows the E-11 in the holster, so we should probably change that when we get to the holster.

Sound, I like it. You're right that it's really the signature part of Del's costume, so it's only right we take the time to get it right. One more small tweak that I didn't think of before - we should also specify that the block on the right should also be covered by the vest material (like the mag pouch inserts). So I've added that in below: ---- Tactical Vest The tactical vest and its pouches are made of black fabric similar to the flight suit material. Heavy black canvas is recommended. There are three M4 / M16 style magazine pouches fitted to the front of the vest, each filled by a rectangular package covered in the same fabric as the tactical vest. The packages fill the pouches completely, and extend above the pouch. Each package has a black gloss strip mounted to the front at the top, which should appear to be constructed from a similar material to the costume's hard armour parts. There is a black block on the right side of the vest matching references, covered by the same black fabric as the tactical vest, held in place by one of the webbing straps described below There are a total of fourteen wide horizontal black webbing straps sewn onto the front of the tactical vest, with four stacked horizontally on either side of the pouches, and two at the front of each pouch. Straps are approximately 1" (25mm) wide and sewn to match reference images. The main shoulder straps are made from leather or leather-like material, which cross at the back and attach to the top edge of the vest on both sides. The front shoulder straps are attached to triglide buckles, which in turn attach to the top front edge of the vest with a shorter strap. The shoulder straps cross near the top of the back armor box. Each shoulder strap runs through a tri-glide at the rear before feeding into approximately 1" (25mm) wide side release buckles which attach to the top edge of the vest. There is a leather or leather-like waist strap (approximately 1" or 25mm wide) present at the back of the tactical vest, and it is attached to the vest with one quick release buckle on the right or left side of the vest at the wearer's option. This quick release buckle is hidden under the scout pouch, and is not seen when worn. A single adjusting tri-glide is centered on the back waist strap. There is a specific buckle greeblie mounted above the front tri-glide buckles on each side, matching reference images. There is a horizontal strip mounted to each front shoulder strap, several inches above the buckle greeblie. The strips should be made from the same material as the shoulder straps. The Flyye tactical vest is not accurate and will not be approved for use. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): The vest is proportional to the wearer. See reference images and the Costume Gallery for placement of specific components. All shoulder and waist straps are made of black leather or leather-like material. Vest front tri-glides are made with reference to the games 3D model, and are attached to the vest with straps that are approximately 1.37" x 1.37" (35mm x 35mm) wide. Buckle style greeblies made with reference to the 3D models are attached to the shoulder straps above the tri-glides. The front shoulder straps which go over the shoulder and continue to the back are made of 3 layers which are glued, sewed or bonded together. Stitching is permitted as long as the stitches are small and do not detract from the overall appearance. The first (bottom) layer is approximately 1.37" (35mm) The middle layer shall be approximately 1" (25mm) wide. The final layer is approximately 9/16" (15mm) wide. The layered part of the leather shoulder straps runs up over the shoulders and stops below the rear of the collar. It then continues on as an approximately 1" (25mm) wide black strap, passing through tri-glides and into side release buckles, which are held to the vest with straps that are approximately 1" (25mm) wide. The three magazine pouches fall below the bottom edge of the vest. The top of the pouch is in line with the bottom edge of the upper webbing strap. The bottom edge of the pouch may come close to but not touch the top edge of the overbelt.

One other important consideration worth some discussion maybe. As of yet we don't have any Level 2 requirements, although there are potentially one or two things that could be placed there quite easily. However, I think it's important that Specialist level remains a challenge for our members. So while I would be entirely in favour of making basic clearance for this proposed costume as accessible as possible, particularly for new members, I would prefer not to create a Level 2 version just for the sake of it. It would risk diluting the Specialist achievement somewhat by creating a relatively easy route to it compared to some other costumes. So unless there are compelling arguments otherwise, I would suggest omitting Level 2 details from this CRL altogether.

Thanks for the feedback both of you, I'm in full agreement. "Calf height" is flexible enough that both TIE and Inferno boots could qualify, and is entirely consistent as a description of what we see in the visual references. I've struck out the additional line about the toe style from Del's CRL to allow more flexibility. I've incorporated the wording from the ANH TIE Pilot, that the boots "may" have an adjustment strap with a buckle, which need not be functional. I've also tweaked it to allow silver *or* gunmetal, which again allows a maximum of flexibility while remaining true to the references. Permitting a zipper but insisting that it should be hidden with the boot's outer material is also consistent with both Inferno and TIE CRLs. Boots Calf high black leather or leather-like material. Boots are dull in appearance. Similar design to tall German jack boots or tall motorcycle riding boots are acceptable for basic approval. Boot has a round, plain toe. Harness style or box toe boots are not to be approved. Ankle straps are to be removed. Typical jackboots are not acceptable as they are too short. The boot shaft must rise as close to the bottom of the knees as possible. The boot shall be as tall as required to achieve this appearance. See reference images. Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with a square buckle. Buckle should be silver or gunmetal, and need not be functional. Adjustment strap has a square, silver adjustment buckle. Heels are made of rubber or similar material and may have tread or no tread. Boots may contain zipper closure but must be concealed with boot material as to not be visible. Boots meeting the standard for the Inferno Squad - Del Meeko CRL are acceptable. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Boots stops just below wearers knees. Shaft height should be 15" (38cm) or as required to stop just below the wearers knees. Boots have a flap with adjustment strap with square silver buckle that starts at the middle back of the boot and wraps around to the outfacing sides. See reference images for shape of the adjustment flap and strap. Boots are not shiny, they have a matte appearance.

The last of the compulsory costume elements, the boots. Reasonably straightforward here I think. The height and style is entirely consistent with existing Inferno boots, while the artwork showing the publisher's painted sculpts clearly shows the metal buckle on the adjustment strap. None of the artwork shows the triangular flap that sits behind the adjustment strap in Del's boots, however I would propose allowing any boot that meets Del's CRL standard to also be clearable here, in line with other elements in this proposed CRL. Boots Calf high black leather or leather-like material. Boots are dull in appearance. Similar design to tall German jack boots or tall motorcycle riding boots are acceptable for basic approval. Boot has a round, plain toe. Harness style or box toe boots are not to be approved. Ankle straps are to be removed. Typical jackboots are not acceptable as they are too short. The boot shaft must rise as close to the bottom of the knees as possible. The boot shall be as tall as required to achieve this appearance. See reference images. Boots have an adjustment strap on the out facing side of the boot. Adjustment strap has a square, silver adjustment buckle. Heels are made of rubber or similar material and may have tread or no tread. Boots may contain zipper closure but must be concealed with boot material as to not be visible. Boots meeting the standard for the Inferno Squad - Del Meeko CRL are acceptable. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Boots stops just below wearers knees. Shaft height should be 15" (38cm) or as required to stop just below the wearers knees. Boots have a flap with adjustment strap with square silver buckle that starts at the middle back of the boot and wraps around to the outfacing sides. See reference images for shape of the adjustment flap and strap. Boots are not shiny, they have a matte appearance.

Thanks, and I agree with all the points you're making there. I would definitely want to keep Level 2 requirements to a minimum on this one, as they seem mostly unnecessary. It's probably best to look at this one the same way the Legion has built CRLs from comic references in the past. A decent example is Soontir Fel over at JRS, which I nearly built some years ago so am reasonably familiar with. The CRL has very few Level 2 requirements, drawing exclusively from the same stylised artwork that we're looking at here. Practically the only time Level 2 is brought in is to remain consistent with similar costumes; eg leather for boots and gloves, patch material to match that used in the films, etc. We could incorporate some of that logic, or we could leave this purely as a standalone entry level costume and let the named Inferno characters act as that step up in accuracy for those who want to chase it.

It's great to have more input, so thanks a million for chipping in Nichole. I think you'll have no issues here for two main reasons: 1) ALL measurements in the CRL are to be taken as approximate - we're trying to do a better job of stressing that this time around. So the relative measurements compared to how the costume fits on the wearer is far more important than any absolute measurements. So if a 6'3" Del needs to drop their mag pouches by about an inch to look accurate to the reference pics, it is only natural that someone who is 5'2" wouldn't have to drop their pouches quite so far. 2) You said that you'd be worried that the pouches would end up rest on top of your scout belt, but in fact the reference images show Del's in-game pouches almost doing exactly this already. The central pouch has virtually no daylight between its lower edge and the top of the belt, while the pouches on either side have a clearance of a few mms at most. So long as they're not overlapping down in front of the belt face, I think you're good 🙂 Also, just a note for us all to come back to later - I've only just noticed that the reference image above actually shows an E-11 in Del's holster... I don't recall seeing that in any of the other reference images? Definitely need to revisit that "Holster must be worn empty" when we get to that section later.

No worries mate. @Dropkickand I are both attending an epic multi-day troop next weekend down at some of the Ep VII and VIII filming locations, so I was planning to have a word in his ear then about this 😉 Yup, I think that approach is the right one. Since I started on this, the publishers have also released interactive 360 degree images of the painted sculpts, so we're in an even better position to make the case than before. Plus I noticed that Del Meeko's artwork from the same publication also finally gives us a look at the compad, which is a simplified version using elements of both the Inferno and regular TIE pilot compads. I added the new images and links to the reference image thread last week.