Imperial Security Trooper - Andor - CRL Discussion

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

As everyone is aware, CRLs are living and breathing documents and are subject to change based on new information discovered. However, I want to err caution going forward on edits to entirely separate CRLs without running them in a separate thread for update.

I may be wrong on a few points, but it is my understanding that the helmets from the IAT: Andor costume were repurposed for use on the Imperial Security Trooper as we are working on here. Wouldn't the details be very similar or if not the same, absent obvious color changes? I'm not saying stuff needs to be identical, but just cautioning massive changes to things unless there is very specific evidence that suggests otherwise.

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

Just wanted to further clarify my comments on the pocket.  There is a vertical seam that goes all the way to the bottom of the tunic.  However, the horizontal seam at the bottom of the pocket it much higher than most have it on their costumes.  As stated, it appears one of the actors left a cell phone or other object, which really shows where the bottom of the pocket is.  I have highlighted the seam in yellow to further illustrate.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Ive been watching and rewatching the Aldhani scenes and on The Axe Forgets, and at timestamp 1548-1553 you can clearly see how the lower jacket flexes with the pocket.  I glue foam slabs in my pockets to make them billow out, and thats how this fabric is behaving. There is no downward shift like there is a loose object in there. it flexes all the way around the rectangular object, as if it is fixed in place. 

We dont know what the costume designers are thinking or why they would do that, but you can clearly see in all well lit scenes that the pocket seam continues to the bottom and casts its own shadow. For a few minutes I thought the shadow cast by the lower pocket where the box or foam or whatever stops looks like the old M65 field jacket drawstring but it only appears in the pocket iselt not all the way around. 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

41 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

Ive been watching and rewatching the Aldhani scenes and on The Axe Forgets, and at timestamp 1548-1553 you can clearly see how the lower jacket flexes with the pocket.  I glue foam slabs in my pockets to make them billow out, and thats how this fabric is behaving. There is no downward shift like there is a loose object in there. it flexes all the way around the rectangular object, as if it is fixed in place. 

We dont know what the costume designers are thinking or why they would do that, but you can clearly see in all well lit scenes that the pocket seam continues to the bottom and casts its own shadow. For a few minutes I thought the shadow cast by the lower pocket where the box or foam or whatever stops looks like the old M65 field jacket drawstring but it only appears in the pocket iselt not all the way around. 

So it's one giant pocket that goes to the edge of the tunic, and the appearance of the seams I highlighted are caused by the foam inserts?

[BigJasoni[TX]]

So we're at the tunic and pants. This is what I've been waiting for.

On 6/6/2023 at 4:42 PM, IcyTrooper said:

I may be wrong on a few points, but it is my understanding that the helmets from the IAT: Andor costume were repurposed for use on the Imperial Security Trooper as we are working on here. Wouldn't the details be very similar or if not the same, absent obvious color changes? I'm not saying stuff needs to be identical, but just cautioning massive changes to things unless there is very specific evidence that suggests otherwise.

This is a great point. Yes, it's pointing back to the helmet, but I again want to caution everyone on relying on anecdotal evidence when determining the construction of these costumes. As we've seen time and time again with the LFL costume department, what one trooper wears may be light years away from what another wears. I always go back to the ANH "stunt" versus "hero" costumes, or even more recently, please refer to my post from May 6th where I pointed out the grey boots worn by our incredible New Generation TKs.

With that said, we do believe the Aldhani troopers received "repurposed" Ferrix armor, but that's about it. Ryan is incredibly correct with regards to the helmet, chest, back, shoulders and biceps, but these soft parts APPEAR to be entirely different with regards to fabric selection.

The word "APPEAR" is a trick we use in air traffic control. It indicates that I see something, but I don't take responsibility for it.

fb501 posted a great closeup shot of the Aldhani hat and I've seen the LFL photos that clearly show a bull denim weave, so for Aldhani, we're set. However, everything I can see in the Ferrix shots shows a canvas material; specifically a waxed canvas, or what my professional textile artist/ seamstress/ mom called, "Oilskin." After doing some research and reviewing the caps, I tend to agree with her. Let me post the pics again.

  

First, I want to point out the crisp smooth texture of the fabric which is totally void of any weave. I can go into the specifics of what makes duck cloth/ canvas what it is, but if this were a denim material, we would be seeing the fabric behave much differently in every picture we have of it. Additionally, I want to point out how the canvas has distinctly different color creases which is a natural result of the fabric's oils/ wax bending and moving with the actors. One thing that leads me to believe this is in fact waxed canvas is how easy it is to brush off the creases and "reform" the fabric between takes. Additionally, though a simple boot brush can be used to clean up any messes on oilskin, heavier pressure such as from an industrial sewing machine's presser foot would leave very distinct lines on every stitch. You wouldn't always notice them, but you definitely can in this pic. Here's a few pics of the demo I did using 12oz waxed canvas. Bear with me, I posted these previously:

Again, though you would initially think "waxed" means a heavy greasy fabric, it's far from it. The wax just gives the canvas a waterproof property and adds character as it's worn. In these pics, you see first, what it looks like naturally, then what happens once you crinkle it up. Notice how the creases are a different color, but also, notice how even after bunching it up, the canvas still remains crisp and in place. 

The next pic shows a black bull denim that I waxed.

The big difference here is coloration that shows no variation. This is due entirely to the same color thread being used in the warp and weft of the canvas. Yes, Aldhani showed slight variation in coloring, but what appears to be color variations, can likely be attributed to the dyeing process. With Ferrix, the only variations we see in the color are due to the creasing and wear. If this were bull denim again, that either wouldn't be present, or the creases would look entirely different, similar to what I'm showing above.

So, what if we ignore the whole oilskin/ waxed canvas argument altogether and just go with canvas versus denim weave? The same thing would happen. If this were regular black denim, you would see a color variation from the different weft being used in the textile process. If it were black bull denim, the colors wouldn't play well with the cameras and both denims would react differently to the actor's movements. With canvas, you would still see the fabric behaving similarly to what we see, but wouldn't have the same creasing action you see in the screen caps.

Next, I would like to point out that at this point in our discussion, we APPEAR to have just as many Aldhani pictures as we do Ferrix. Though I agree with Ryan's assessment from the beginning of my post, and though the armor is pretty much identical (even though it's not) please keep in mind that these are two totally different costumes. 

Personally, I think it's a stunt vs. hero thing, but I'll point out the differences in armor when we get there. 😜

Anyways, here's a few caps just to show some fabric closeups:

Again, please note how the only variations in coloring are present around stitch lines and creases. Additionally, we do not see anything clearly showing a weave in the fabric. Just seeing how the fabric behaves, and given my experience working with this fabric, I would fully argue against this being any sort of denim. 

For basic approval, I would go so far as to say "plain weave black cotton fabric, similar to duck canvas," and for level 2 I would add "appearing to be waxed canvas/ oilskin." 

Of course, people can optionally wax their own costume using fabric wax and a brush, or just weather it appropriately. I would highly encourage the wax; there's plenty of videos online showing how to do this.

Here are my preferred tools.

 

[IcyTrooper[CMD-DL]]

@BigJasoni you made some very good points with this. I appreciate the extra information in this and the deeper dive (along with other members here) on the tunic and trousers part of this costume. It is definitely worth exploring the "oil" or "waxy" look that is described.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Hey everyone. 

let me first apologize for being absent for so long. With the nature of my business I get sent no-notice TDY duty to other areas of the country, and thats what happened. With the type of work I do (onsite aircraft maintenance) I can literally be on an airplane up to 16 hours a day working on it then go drive to the hotel to rest, which generally means doing a fwe hours of paperwork. I even had to buy a laptop on this last trip to try to keep up with all the paperwork I was generating. 

With that, let me catch up to where we are. 

Im on board with making the recommended change to the text to include the waxed fabric for L2. I have zero experience with this or what it would actually look like, but I do have some black fabric that looks nasty after I run the sewing machine presser foot over it. 

I have reviewed the scene many times and cannot see the fabric rank bars on the left arm. Most troopers have the arm armor, but maybe someone with a higher defintion monitor can find it , if it exists on the black uniform. 

SO, that said here are the proposals for tunic and trousers.

V1.1

Tunic 

• A long-sleeved, olive green black jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 
• Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave.   is a plain weave cotton fabric similar to duck canvas.
• Has a high mandarin style collar with a left-over-right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.
• The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 
• Four rectangular pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic
• The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 
• Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used, the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes.
• One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures.
• The top of the arm pocket flaps are in line with the top edge of the chest pockets. 
• Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.  (IS THIS CORRECT ?)
• Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed.
• Fabric has the appearance of waxed canvas or oilskin fabric. 
• If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

Trousers:

• Olive green  black pants matching the tunic and hat in color, type and weave.                                                      
• Fabric is a denim textured material with a visible weave.  
• There are no visible pockets. 
• Trousers feature a long reinforcement panel on the front of the leg from mid thigh to below the knee.  This panel is double row stitched. It does not extend to the side seams of the trouser leg. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable)

                                     

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:08 PM, Blackwatch said:

Hey everyone. 

let me first apologize for being absent for so long. With the nature of my business I get sent no-notice TDY duty to other areas of the country, and thats what happened. With the type of work I do (onsite aircraft maintenance) I can literally be on an airplane up to 16 hours a day working on it then go drive to the hotel to rest, which generally means doing a fwe hours of paperwork. I even had to buy a laptop on this last trip to try to keep up with all the paperwork I was generating. 

With that, let me catch up to where we are. 

Im on board with making the recommended change to the text to include the waxed fabric for L2. I have zero experience with this or what it would actually look like, but I do have some black fabric that looks nasty after I run the sewing machine presser foot over it. 

I have reviewed the scene many times and cannot see the fabric rank bars on the left arm. Most troopers have the arm armor, but maybe someone with a higher defintion monitor can find it , if it exists on the black uniform. 

SO, that said here are the proposals for tunic and trousers.

V1.1

Tunic 

• A long-sleeved, olive green black jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 
• Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave.   is a plain weave cotton fabric similar to duck canvas.
• Has a high mandarin style collar with a left-over-right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.
• The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 
• Four rectangular pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic
• The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 
• Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used, the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes.
• One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures.
• The top of the arm pocket flaps are in line with the top edge of the chest pockets. 
• Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.  (IS THIS CORRECT ?)
• Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed.
• Fabric has the appearance of waxed canvas or oilskin fabric. 
• If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

Trousers:

• Olive green  black pants matching the tunic and hat in color, type and weave.                                                      
• Fabric is a denim textured material with a visible weave.  
• There are no visible pockets. 
• Trousers feature a long reinforcement panel on the front of the leg from mid thigh to below the knee.  This panel is double row stitched. It does not extend to the side seams of the trouser leg. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable)

                                     

Looks good.  And to add to the rank bar discussion… watching the scenes at least 100 times I have seen nothing to indicate they have them.  I suggest removing them completely.

[BigJasoni[TX]]

I agree with the wording. Good job guys.
Reference the rank bars, there's absolutely nothing definitive there. Also, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall seeing any bars on anyone's shoulder bells either which would somewhat disqualify the rank bar placement on the tunic. I honestly don't care either way because it's unseen, but in the absence of definitive proof of it's existence, I think we should probably leave it off.

Regarding the pants, I will agree that the thigh patch is a lot longer than what's been done previously, i.e. mudtrooper, but maybe we should delineate just how far it goes down so that we don't have anyone rocking "shin reinforcement patches." From the few caps I can find, the patch appears to be just below the knee cap; nearly inline with the bottom edges of the "T" on the knee plate. It does not appear to go below the upper ledge of the boots.

Also, I know we're not talking about boots right now, but I'm throwing this out there as a "placeholder" for future conversation (so I don't forget): we need to ensure we identify the boots as German Navy Sea Boots, not simply jack boots. The sea boots are a variant of jack boots, but include the distinctive rear flap and buckle. Common Jack Boots do not have these accessories. 

You guys are awesome

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

hey guys Im back in the forum again. 

Yeah I agree ive watched and rewated that scene and I just dont see anything like a rank bar on any armor or on any shoulder. 

Ill delete all references to it. 

The reinforcement patch is longer than mudtrooper and ICAT drivers, I made my pants and they stop on my thigh. 

This appears to start on the thigh and falls just below the kneecap stopping at or just above the shin armor, it will vary per person and how the shin armor moves, but the line of where it starts on that cap shows pretty clearly that it starts at the middle of the thigh. The bunching around the kneecap is very distinctive.  We already have it written starting at the mid thigh and ending below the knee, and the way we have it worded is that it is double stiched. 

So, with the ICAT thats written to be two panels on top off each other, but I only see the one panel here. 

V1.2

Tunic 

• A long-sleeved, olive green black jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 
• Fabric has a denim textured material with a visible weave.   is a plain weave cotton fabric similar to duck canvas.
• Has a high mandarin style collar with a left-over-right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.
• The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 
• Four rectangular pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic
• The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 
• Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used, the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes.
• One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures.
• The top of the arm pocket flaps are in line with the top edge of the chest pockets. 
• Above the left arm pocket flap, up to 2 black fabric rank bars may be present.  (IS THIS CORRECT ?)
• Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed.
• Fabric has the appearance of waxed canvas or oilskin fabric. 
• If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

Trousers:

• Olive green  black pants matching the tunic and hat in color, type and weave.                                                      
• Fabric is a denim textured material with a visible weave.  
• There are no visible pockets. 
• Trousers feature a long reinforcement panel on the front of the leg from mid thigh to below the knee.  This panel is double row stitched. It does not extend to the side seams of the trouser leg. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable)

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Its been a vew days with no further comment so Im going to clear and lock the tunic and pants as proposed. 

V1.2 (FINAL)

Tunic 

• A long-sleeved, black jacket that falls just to mid-thigh, with no visible zippers or buttons. 
• Fabric is a plain weave cotton similar to duck canvas.
• Has a high mandarin style collar with a left-over-right closure that rises from the front of the tunic.
• The front closure overlaps left over right and rises from the hem at the bottom of the tunic to the top of the collar. 
• Four rectangular pockets are present on the jacket front, covered by large flapped closures. Lower pockets are larger than the ones on the upper chest.  Lower pocket seams rest on the same seam as the end of the tunic
• The rear of the jacket has a horizontal seam present near the upper back. Two vertical seams start below the horizontal upper back seam moving down the bottom of the jacket. 
• Two black tunic hooks to hold the belt in place are permitted. If used, the hooks will pass from the inside of the tunic to the outside through holes on either side of the tunic at the hip. The belt covers the holes.
• One pocket is present on each arm of the jacket, each covered by large flapped closures.
• The top of the arm pocket flaps are in line with the top edge of the chest pockets. 
• Cuffs on the sleeves are about mid-distance to the elbow. The material folds back on itself to form the cuff. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• The front jacket flap will have rectangular stitch marks with a stitched X inside where velcro is attached to keep the flap closed.
• Fabric has the appearance of waxed canvas or oilskin fabric. 
• If left arm rank bars are present, the black fabric should be similar to duvetyn type of fabric and will  have 3 equidistant horizontal stitch lines through each rank bar.

Trousers:

• Black pants matching the tunic and hat in color, type and weave.                                                      
• There are no visible pockets. 
• Trousers feature a long reinforcement panel on the front of the leg from mid thigh to below the knee.  This panel is double row stitched. It does not extend to the side seams of the trouser leg. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable)

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Moving off of textiles lets look at armor. 

The chest is the next piece, then we can discuss the back once the chest is nailed down. 

Proposal

V1.0

Chest Armor — Version Two Chest armor matches visual references being accurate in shape and design. There is an indented area around the outer edge of the center flat section. Buckles attach to upper chest plate. Buckles are gunmetal or silver with black recesses. Shoulder straps are affixed to the chest plate at the buckle. The shoulder strap is black. It is permitted to be made of cast flexible urethane or other flexible material. To the lower left side of the center flat panel is a recessed area angled inward from bottom to top with a raised rectangle greeblie and a recessed horizontal elongated oval. The elongated oval is painted Humbrol Eed #19, or equivalent. The raised rectangle greeblie is painted silver or light grey. Left of the recessed area is a raised square that extends from the center to the curved side of the armor. A white or silver rectangle is present on this raised square. On the top left side of the raised area is a raised oblong detail that protrudes outwards. Chest shall be painted a very dark grey. Greenish undertones in certain lighting conditions is acceptable. An acceptable range of colors include RLM 70 to Sherwin Williams SW6994 Greenblack, or equivalent.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Buckles have black recess on upper narrow section and the lower recess shall expose the chest armor. Buckles may have silver paint chipping showing gunmetal underneath the silver.

•  

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

Moving off of textiles lets look at armor. 

The chest is the next piece, then we can discuss the back once the chest is nailed down. 

Proposal

V1.0

Chest Armor — Version Two Chest armor matches visual references being accurate in shape and design. There is an indented area around the outer edge of the center flat section. Buckles attach to upper chest plate. Buckles are gunmetal or silver with black recesses. Shoulder straps are affixed to the chest plate at the buckle. The shoulder strap is black. It is permitted to be made of cast flexible urethane or other flexible material. To the lower left side of the center flat panel is a recessed area angled inward from bottom to top with a raised rectangle greeblie and a recessed horizontal elongated oval. The elongated oval is painted Humbrol Eed #19, or equivalent. The raised rectangle greeblie is painted silver or light grey. Left of the recessed area is a raised square that extends from the center to the curved side of the armor. A white or silver rectangle is present on this raised square. On the top left side of the raised area is a raised oblong detail that protrudes outwards. Chest shall be painted a very dark grey. Greenish undertones in certain lighting conditions is acceptable. An acceptable range of colors include RLM 70 to Sherwin Williams SW6994 Greenblack, or equivalent.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Buckles have black recess on upper narrow section and the lower recess shall expose the chest armor. Buckles may have silver paint chipping showing gunmetal underneath the silver.

•  

Someone else can correct me if I am wrong, but I am seeing no color on the front (and back) armor.  It appears to be the anthracite with no additional color, even on the greeblies.  Buckles are also only black with no additional coloring. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

This is like the most boring, classic 80s movies  black-on-black-on-black-on black "BAD GOVERNMENT AGENCY" bad guy costume ever.  There's just no color. 

I do see a slight sheen on the shoulderstraps and I believe thats because they are cast flexible rubber like what we wear. I may be wrong but thats my guess. My cast rubber straps look like that.  Anthracite seems like a good call for those that can get it, otherwis, flat black. 

The inset on the chest looks grey. 

 

[BigJasoni[TX]]

Ok... Chest armor. So here we go.

We all know and understand that Lucasfilm has a habbit of recycling armor parts, e.g. the Shoretrooper armor turns into AT-ACT & Tanker armor, which shares pieces with the Deathtrooper, which has stormtooper parts. Additionally, we saw the Mudtrooper turn into the ICAT Driver, then the Mudtrooper/ ICAT turns into the Imperial Army Trooper. It's just part of the production evolution; each of them share items from each other:

So, I post the CRL pictures of the Shorey, Deathtrooper, Muddy and ICAT driver, then follow that up with the screen caps of the Army trooper for a couple reasons: 1. to show the natural progression of armor in the shows and how it's been reused multiple times, 2. to show that THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE ARMOR SETS (despite what's been stated all too frequently, you cannot use a Shoretrooper back piece for this costume, and 3. to explicitly state that we have to get this right; we've unfortunately done the "close enough" thing too many times.

The wonderful thing about the Shoretrooper armor, and now our Andor armor, is that it uses found parts, especially on the back, but we'll get to that eventually. For now, let's focus on the chest. SPOILER ALERT... if the chest is constructed correctly, you have no other option but to do the back correctly as well. Let's discuss.

I spoke (chatted) with @Bozzy a few months ago about his chest armor modifications. Initially, there was some concern about the slope that the chest takes from the collar area down to the front of the chest. Most makers, including the original files from Sean Fields and Chris's remix had a very abrupt slope instead of the gradual downwards slope that looks more natural. First I'll show my current armor then follow that up with some more accurate shots:

My current Mudtrooper/ ICAT

Correct slope shown on the Hot Toys ICAT Driver figure:

My current Aldhani Trooper Chest:

Correct Slope on Aldhani. Please disregard the arrows, that's for something else.

So, regarding the slope, I understand that most armor makers aren't going to make this change. We're talking about approximately a current 45 degree slope versus a correct 55-60 degree slope, but if you think about it, this does shorten the flat section on the front.

First, my current Aldhani armor chest:

And the screen used gear:

Not much different, but it's there. Again, makers likely aren't going to change their molds/ bucks, and that's fine because it's negligible, but here's one that stands out like a sore thumb and cannot be overlooked:

Notice how the armor swoops at the chest/ back connection point? This isn't a one-off as it can be seen several times. This is just the most prominent, but it was also visible on Aldhani:

Again, if the chest is constructed correctly, you can't just use any back armor. The swoop is definitely apparent on the front and back, but even without it, your chest is significantly taller than a Shore or Deathtrooper, so your back won't line up. Case in point, please see what happened to one of my friends when a maker sent him a Shoretrooper back to be used with his ICAT chest:

There's way too many modifications needed in order to make this right. Please reach out to your vendor prior to ordering your armor to ensure they're not recycling parts.

Regardless, for Andor, the producers/ costume department clearly made use of current designs as I pointed out earlier. This is indeed the same design as the mudtrooper kit, but knowing that Lucasfilm has been utilizing FBFX for current armor builds, and the company essentially started from the ground up on a lot of them, my guess is that they improved on the original design as part of their casting process. As was seen with their Vader design for Kenobi, the company is very respectful of the legacy designs, but definitely improved on pieces where it made the most sense.

Personally, my biggest gripe with this armor set is the yoke/ collar (which I spoke about in the Aldhani thread) but I've heard other people complain about this chest/ back joint. Specifically, for people who aren't exactly 6' 170 lbs, this can be a bit of an annoyance, but I will say that I've left troops with a couple bruises where these pieces meet. For actors who are going to be wearing this for hours on end, it makes sense to add a relief.

Ultimately, the chest/ back connection point has a large visible swoop which extends from the base of the chest up to the bottom of the back armor; it is not a straight connection. This needs to be annotated to ensure the accuracy of the costume and to keep makers from short-cutting their designs which inevitably end up on our CRLs. Again, other than the Deathtrooper armor I shared earlier, each of these armor sets should have IDENTICAL back box greeblies which are known parts. Having significant variances in our CRLs  when the screen caps are readily available kind of makes us look silly.

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I always understood the lower curves to line up, like with magnets to keep them more or less aligned. 

Ive not paid any attention to shoretroopers, we dont have any here so Ive never made the connection that the back is similar in appearance to our Endor and mudtroopers.  We can write is so that the curved join is stated.  One thing I note in the photos especially the one at the bottom that you lightened is that the bicep is open at the back, like we saw in Mandelorian with the new Pretorian Guards. Fabric on the arm is clearly visible, and here the shirt fabric is sticking out.  

[neoakaj[TX]]

I am back from the two months of crazy. Looking over everything now and willing to lend an eye or anything as needed

[BigJasoni[TX]]

15 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

I always understood the lower curves to line up, like with magnets to keep them more or less aligned. 

Ive not paid any attention to shoretroopers, we dont have any here so Ive never made the connection that the back is similar in appearance to our Endor and mudtroopers.  We can write is so that the curved join is stated.  One thing I note in the photos especially the one at the bottom that you lightened is that the bicep is open at the back, like we saw in Mandelorian with the new Pretorian Guards. Fabric on the arm is clearly visible, and here the shirt fabric is sticking out.  

Yes, these use the same back boxes as the Shorey, but the bottom of the armor is a much different shape.

Regarding Casian Andor’s bicep armor, I believe this was a one-off instance. If you look at that pic, you can see that Diego Luna’s armor doesn’t fit him the same as the others. I believe this is just due to his size since he's a pretty lean guy. So, there may be a reason why they neglected to have him wear the inner piece of the bicep armor; my guess is comfort.

 However, with that said, these type biceps are two pieces that are held together with stretchable cords. The stuff they used on set is called Framilon, which is made out of TPU. They’re the very same ones worn by the Shoretroopers and New Generation TKs. If this were to be added as a requirement, I would suggest using the verbiage from the Shoretrooper or Rogue One TK CRL, but honestly, I don’t see anything wrong with the single piece biceps. Maybe the two part construction can be used for level 2. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I think for simplicity we can word it to allow for flex and a gap at even L1 since its seen on screen. 

I printed out my ICAT files from mudtrooper I dont remember if those were your remixes or Seans originals but they were one piece and fit me fine.  

 

ok , so lets have a go at this. I am altering the text for the recessed and raised blocks on the armor left chest since this is different than what we see on Aldhani. 

 

V1.1

Chest Armor 

Chest armor matches visual references being accurate in shape and design.

The join between the chest and back armor are created by an angled sweep starting at the bottom of the chest armor and finishing at the bottom of the back armor. This may be held closed with magnets, velcro or other hidden fastener. 

There is an indented area around the outer edge of the center flat section.

Buckles attach to upper chest plate and match the armor color.  Buckles are gunmetal or silver with black recesses.

Shoulder straps are affixed to the chest plate at the buckle. The shoulder strap is black. It is permitted to be made of cast flexible urethane or other flexible material.

To the lower left side of the center flat panel is a recessed area angled inward from bottom to top with a raised rectangle greeblie and a recessed horizontal elongated oval. The recessed area is painted medium grey.  The elongated oval is painted Humbrol Eed #19, or equivalent. The raised rectangle greeblie is painted silver or light grey.

Left of the recessed area is a raised square that extends from the center to the curved side of the armor. A white or silver rectangle is present on this raised square.

On the top left side of the raised area is a raised oblong detail that protrudes outwards.

Chest shall be painted to match helmet and back armor.  a very dark grey. Greenish undertones in certain lighting conditions is acceptable. An acceptable range of colors include RLM 70 to Sherwin Williams SW6994 Greenblack, or equivalent.

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Buckles have black recess on upper narrow section and the lower recess shall expose the chest armor.
Buckles may have silver paint chipping showing gunmetal underneath the silver.

[BigJasoni[TX]]

All, I thought post again with a couple examples, because I'm not sure I explained it good enough yesterday.

Basically, what we've seen in the anthology movies and Disney + shows are some good lessons' learned from previous iterations of LFL costumes. The examples I point to almost immediately are the studio's use of shore 00 urethane material with medium-hard levels of flexibility, armor that is vacuum cast vice the more traditional vacuum formed, and additions, such as the two part (flex opening) biceps that are designed to hang from the shoulders. Items such as these all contribute to longer lasting costume pieces (that can be recycled and turned into other kits) and offer a greater deal of comfort and flexibility to the actors. 

Yes, we still have examples where the costume manufacturers likely rushed out a couple brittle cast sets in order to fill a large order for background characters, but for the most part, we keep finding pieces being used through various characters and honestly, why mess with a good thing.

So, with that said, I'm not here to encourage peeps to buy one maker's kit over another, but rather offer up suggestions so everyone can make informed decisions. First, David pointed out Andor's split bicep, which I kind of explained a little bit, but here's a better explanation:

The flexible cords likely snapped prior to this shot.

If you look at the pic again, you can kind of see how the inside portion of the bicep is still there, but it kind of slid down around his elbow. My guess is that the Velcro holding the other side did it's job, but with the framilon (TPU) cords failing, this was left to flop around and the crew likely didn't notice until after the shot. Just a guess, but having seen these things up close, that's what makes sense to me.

Next, here's some pics of my ROTK armor which uses the same bicep and hanging device:

Next is the bicep armor I intend on using for my Ferrix trooper which shows the two halves:

Anyways, I just wanted to amplify what I was trying to explain yesterday. When we actually start covering the arms, I'll post a little more.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I find this interesting, fascinating, intriquing, and would love to redo my ICAT Biceps. We will definitely cover this more in depth once we get the back completed.

[BigJasoni[TX]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

I think for simplicity we can word it to allow for flex and a gap at even L1 since its seen on screen. 

I printed out my ICAT files from mudtrooper I dont remember if those were your remixes or Seans originals but they were one piece and fit me fine.  

 

ok , so lets have a go at this. I am altering the text for the recessed and raised blocks on the armor left chest since this is different than what we see on Aldhani. 

 

V1.1

Chest Armor 

Chest armor matches visual references being accurate in shape and design.

The join between the chest and back armor are created by an angled sweep starting at the bottom of the chest armor and finishing at the bottom of the back armor. This may be held closed with magnets, velcro or other hidden fastener. 

There is an indented area around the outer edge of the center flat section.

Buckles attach to upper chest plate and match the armor color.  Buckles are gunmetal or silver with black recesses.

Shoulder straps are affixed to the chest plate at the buckle. The shoulder strap is black. It is permitted to be made of cast flexible urethane or other flexible material.

To the lower left side of the center flat panel is a recessed area angled inward from bottom to top with a raised rectangle greeblie and a recessed horizontal elongated oval. The recessed area is painted medium grey.  The elongated oval is painted Humbrol Eed #19, or equivalent. The raised rectangle greeblie is painted silver or light grey.

Left of the recessed area is a raised square that extends from the center to the curved side of the armor. A white or silver rectangle is present on this raised square.

On the top left side of the raised area is a raised oblong detail that protrudes outwards.

Chest shall be painted to match helmet and back armor.  a very dark grey. Greenish undertones in certain lighting conditions is acceptable. An acceptable range of colors include RLM 70 to Sherwin Williams SW6994 Greenblack, or equivalent.

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
Buckles have black recess on upper narrow section and the lower recess shall expose the chest armor.
Buckles may have silver paint chipping showing gunmetal underneath the silver.

😆 we were typing at the same time.

All credit goes to Sean Fields and Chris Bostock for the armor. Other than Chris and I bouncing a ton of ideas off each other before settling on the final design, my contributions were limited to shoulder and shin straps and remixing Sean's buckle designs. The big things Chris and I talked through were the overall shape of the chest "slope" and some of the different angles that started popping up. I am happy to announce however, that after a full year, my CR-10 Max is finally operational and I'm currently printing off the new chest and back. 

But, regarding the clam shell biceps, I would argue to keep the one piece design available for level 1 certification. My reasoning is that even with the clam shells, the look they're attempting to emulate is a single piece design. Ultimately, you're looking at bicep armor that has cover strips on either side that exist to hide the seams. Now, on the shows, we've see the Velcro pop up a couple times as well as the strap that's designed to keep the shoulders from flapping around, but the intended look is a single piece.

For the chest, I concur with all additions with the exception of "the recessed area is painted medium grey." I may have missed something in an earlier discussion, but how did we come up with this? To me it looks like the same color, but please let me know if I missed something.

The other thing I agree/ disagree with (yes both 😆) is the method for closing the chest/ back joint. Magnets are awesome and what I intended to use on my ICAT costume, but after a couple still shots came out showing Velcro only, that's what I decided on:

Then there's this one again:

--EDIT-- I just noticed that this guy's bicep appears to be missing the inner piece, or it came disconnected. I think it's also probable that they didn't have some of the "stunt" actors wear them. I just went through a bunch of the stills and noticed that some are wearing them and others aren't. It looks like the guys who get closer shots, or aren't doing a lot of moving are wearing the entire bicep. Peeps swinging batons and getting tossed around appear to only be wearing the outer shell. 🤔 🤷‍♂️ We can talk more about this after the back armor.

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

I find this interesting, fascinating, intriquing, and would love to redo my ICAT Biceps. We will definitely cover this more in depth once we get the back completed.

Sounds like a good plan

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

I think the appearance of grey is merely due to the lighting and angles.  I don't think they bothered to paint it a different color, but that's just my opinion.

[BigJasoni[TX]]

38 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

I think the appearance of grey is merely due to the lighting and angles.  I don't think they bothered to paint it a different color, but that's just my opinion.

I concur. Sooooo... any thoughts on this?

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

31 minutes ago, BigJasoni said:

I concur. Sooooo... any thoughts on this?

Optional weathering?