Imperial Security Trooper - Andor - CRL Discussion

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

With biceps and shoulders done Id like to look at the belt and the gloves at the same time

Here is the original text from the Andor Trooper CRL as published.:

 

Proposal  v.1: 

Gloves

Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.

Gloves shall have all logos removed.

There is no decorative stitching on the gloves.

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Gloves shall have a U-shaped adjustment at the wrist.

Dents brand gloves or accurate replica of Dents gloves.

 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or leather-like material.

Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.

There are no loops on the belt.

A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.

The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.

The buckle size is approximately 2 5⁄8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1⁄8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.

Buckle is adorned with a Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center. The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 3" (76.2mm) tall x 2" (50.8mm) wide, x 1" (25.4mm) thick.

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish.

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

Belt has a groove at top and bottom edge of the belt along its length.

Belt boxes are smaller than Rogue One boxes, being 2.5" (67mm) tall x 1.75" wide (45mm) x 1" (25.4mm) thick.

Belt boxes feature a pill shaped indentation at the top of the box.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Proposal V.1.1

 

We know the belt boxes are not olive grey they are black and match the armor. Ill make that adjustment here.

Honestly not a lo to stay about the gloves at this point. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or leather-like material.

Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.

There are no loops on the belt.

A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.

The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.

The buckle size is approximately 2 5⁄8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1⁄8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.

Buckle is adorned with a Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center. The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 3" (76.2mm) tall x 2" (50.8mm) wide, x 1" (25.4mm) thick.

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish.   to match the armor. 

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

Belt has a groove at top and bottom edge of the belt along its length.

Belt boxes are smaller than Rogue One boxes, being 2.5" (67mm) tall x 1.75" wide (45mm) x 1" (25.4mm) thick.

Belt boxes feature a pill shaped indentation at the top of the box.

 

[BigJasoni[TX]]

5 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

Proposal V.1.1

 

We know the belt boxes are not olive grey they are black and match the armor. Ill make that adjustment here.

Honestly not a lo to stay about the gloves at this point. 

Belt

The belt is constructed from a non-textured leather or leather-like material.

Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.

There are no loops on the belt.

A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.

The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.

The buckle size is approximately 2 5⁄8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1⁄8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.

Buckle is adorned with a Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center. The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.

The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.

The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 3" (76.2mm) tall x 2" (50.8mm) wide, x 1" (25.4mm) thick.

Boxes shall be painted olive grey or gunmetal with a flat finish.   to match the armor. 

 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

Belt is made of leather.

Belt has a groove at top and bottom edge of the belt along its length.

Belt boxes are smaller than Rogue One boxes, being 2.5" (67mm) tall x 1.75" wide (45mm) x 1" (25.4mm) thick.

Belt boxes feature a pill shaped indentation at the top of the box.

 

I concur with all. The belt and gloves are pretty straight forward.

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

On 10/13/2023 at 12:52 PM, BigJasoni said:

I concur with all. The belt and gloves are pretty straight forward.

Yep...  too easy.  Onward!!!

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Ok, Il leave it up a couple more days just for openness and transarency for any other input then we can clear and lock. 

 

Editing my post from two days ago, here is the final revision:

 

 

 Final Version V 1.1 

Gloves

• Black gloves made of smooth leather or leather-like material.
• Gloves shall have all logos removed.
• There is no decorative stitching on the gloves.

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Gloves shall have a U-shaped adjustment at the wrist.
• Dents brand gloves or accurate replica of Dents gloves.

Belt

• Belt is construction from a non-textured leather or leather-like material. 
• Approximately 2" (50.8 mm) in width, up to 3" (76.2 mm) is acceptable.
• There are no loops on the belt.
• A single large snap or rivet is visible approximately 1" (25.4 mm) to the wearers left from the buckle.
• The buckle is constructed from a horizontally brushed metal, or metal looking material.
• The buckle size is approximately 2 5⁄8" (66.7 mm) high and 4 1⁄8" (104.5 mm) wide with 0.5" (12.7 mm) radius rounded corners.
• Buckle is adorned with a Rogue One type Code Disk without grooves at the center. The belt is worn above the top of the lower pocket flap top edge.
• The belt features two boxes, one on either side of the buckle.
• The boxes are Rogue One style boxes, the dimensions are approximately 3" (76.2mm) tall x 2" (50.8mm) wide, x 1" (25.4mm) thick.
• Boxes shall be painted to match the armor. 

OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):

• Belt is made of leather.
• Belt has a groove at top and bottom edge of the belt along its length.
• Belt boxes are smaller than Rogue One boxes, being 2.5" (67mm) tall x 1.75" wide (45mm) x 1" (25.4mm) thick.
• Belt boxes feature a pill shaped indentation at the top of the box.

 

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Our next point will be the boots, and the attached grieve/ shin armor. 

 

From the Andor Trooper CRL:
 

Boots Calf high black leather or leather like material. Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments. If seams are present on the shaft, they are at the rear only. Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1" (25.4mm). This need not be functional. Jackboot buckles should not be shiny/can be painted dingy grey or gun-metal color. Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed. If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black. German “jack boot” style boots are most canon. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Boots are made of leather. So lets talk about the boots, and talk about the actual photo we are using on the Imperial Andor Trooper, are we using the correct graphic for that?

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

14 minutes ago, Blackwatch said:

Our next point will be the boots, and the attached grieve/ shin armor. 

 

From the Andor Trooper CRL:
 

Boots Calf high black leather or leather like material. Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments. If seams are present on the shaft, they are at the rear only. Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1" (25.4mm). This need not be functional. Jackboot buckles should not be shiny/can be painted dingy grey or gun-metal color. Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed. If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black. German “jack boot” style boots are most canon. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Boots are made of leather. So lets talk about the boots, and talk about the actual photo we are using on the Imperial Andor Trooper, are we using the correct graphic for that?

So I think Jason and I have touched on the boots at some point... or maybe amongst ourselves.  The boots are not the traditional jack boots used in previous SW entries.  They are cold war era German Navy Boots.  They are shorter, more of a mid-calf variant.  I have included photos of mine.  The only difference between mine and the screen-used are the sole, which I feel is a L1-L2 issue.  The soles on the show are more flat and smooth.  Mine have treads. I know some dets make a huge deal about even the soles being correct, others not so much.  There is of course the stitching where the tongue separates from the shaft, as well as the reinforcement on the heel.  I would go almost as far as to say that the boots on the Aldhani Trooper are incorrect. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

yeah thats exactly what i was thinking. 

For ICAT troopers its supposed to be a tall boot that goes to under the knee and the top of the shin guard stops at the top of the boot.  So, if this is truly a shorter boot, and I believe it is based on the images in the reference gallery   The top strap of the shin armor is well above the top of the boot. The boots on film have a smooth sole, we can make that a L2 requirement, while lug soles such as your should be fine for approval, with text to match. 

 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

1 hour ago, Blackwatch said:

yeah thats exactly what i was thinking. 

For ICAT troopers its supposed to be a tall boot that goes to under the knee and the top of the shin guard stops at the top of the boot.  So, if this is truly a shorter boot, and I believe it is based on the images in the reference gallery   The top strap of the shin armor is well above the top of the boot. The boots on film have a smooth sole, we can make that a L2 requirement, while lug soles such as your should be fine for approval, with text to match. 

 

Yep. One strap on the boot, one on the pants. 

[BigJasoni[TX]]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:42 AM, Blackwatch said:

Our next point will be the boots, and the attached grieve/ shin armor. 

 

From the Andor Trooper CRL:
 

Boots Calf high black leather or leather like material. Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments. If seams are present on the shaft, they are at the rear only. Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1" (25.4mm). This need not be functional. Jackboot buckles should not be shiny/can be painted dingy grey or gun-metal color. Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed. If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black. German “jack boot” style boots are most canon. OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable): Boots are made of leather. So lets talk about the boots, and talk about the actual photo we are using on the Imperial Andor Trooper, are we using the correct graphic for that?

Ok. Per the references, which were very clear, we need to be very deliberate in our approach here. We kind of messed this up on the Imperial Andor Trooper (Aldhani), and need to go back and correct that. So, let's make sure we get this one right. The boots they used on set are definitively German Navy Bundesmarine Sea Boots (German Bundesmarine Jack Boots). The German Navy Sea boots are significantly shorter than standard German jack boots, and nowhere near the Chrome Tanned Russian Officer boots used for the ICAT and Muddy. Additionally, we've already seen the top manufacturers start marketing their Tie Pilot Jack Boots as acceptable boots for this costume and they couldn't be more wrong.

Here's the issue with the current manufacturers:

1. Boots are too tall. The Bundesmarine Jack Boots are mid to upper shin level boots (depending on the trooper's height). This is most noticeable by how the shin armor never seems to stay put on any of the troopers during the Rix Road scene. Here's a picture of those non-armor guys marching around Ferrix in The Axe Forgets episode:

Notice how high the thigh patch is above the top of the boots.

Next, I want to highlight what I was saying about the shin armor height and where the strap sits:

The height of the shin armor causes the strap to constantly sit above the top of the boot every time these guys move. If this were a taller jack boot (1942 style) or a Russian Officer Boot (Mudtrooper/ ICAT) both shin straps would remain on the leather.

2. "Chonky" soles/ tread. The tread of the Bundesmarine boots are flatter and designed to provide traction at sea. The above shots are a little blurry, but notice the much flatter sole with a minimal heel. All three pictures also highlight the shin strap placement and shorter "flap" on the back of the boot.
@pm07 posted a few pics of the boot soles back when we were discussing Aldhani:

Unfortunately these are pretty dark and we can't make out the design/ pattern. However, we can see in those pics that they were relatively smooth (likely due to extensive wear), but it is pretty clear that the soles were not "knobby." If a person is fortunate enough to get an unused set, they may need to wear them down a little to flatten the soles.

Back to Rix Road: 

Interestingly, in this picture, we actually see two different styles of Jack Boots. The one in the center is a very short "marching boot" style that was used later in WWII. As materials became scarce, the German army began shortening the shafts of the boot until ultimately they were left with ankle height boots and gaiters. This one is the "in-between" era boot, circa late 1943-1944. Additionally, there's no perforation on the front of the boot and the strap/ buckle are either very narrow or missing altogether.
We don't see very many examples of this in the show, so similar to the bicep conversation, I don't believe this was the intent of the costume department.

3. Long flap and incorrect buckles. Contrary to the marching boot, the other style we see in the above picture is the German Navy Sea Boot, which we got an extreme closeup of on Aldhani in The Eye episode. Again... different costume, but same props used.

Notice how the crescent shaped flap only extends downwards a couple inches. By contrast, a lot of the popular reproductions we're seeing have a long flap that extends nearly 2/3 of the length of the rear, towards  the heel stitching. 

Additionally, in every reference shot, we have boots with "subdued" buckles, not chrome. If you get a boot with chrome buckles, you might as well break out the Sharpie.

4. Boots are not perforated (holes) in the front. Unfortunately, I can't find the picture that distinctly shows the peroration on the front of the boot, but I know it was visible in several scenes. If someone else finds this reference, please post it.

Finally, I wanted to post a picture of my Bundesmarine German Navy Sea Boots. These are very difficult to find, but if you look hard enough, you'll find some. If you're size 7-9, Hessen Antique has some used sets for cheap, but anything larger will require an extensive search or ordering from overseas if you're in the US. Of note, my boots have surprisingly never been worn, so the sole actually has thicker tread than most you'll find that are old and heavily worn. However, it's still minimal compared to most reproductions.

 

5. The boots are made of Chrome Tan Leather with a natural texture.

Notice how the leather has a very distinct texture to it. It is not smooth. We see this clearly on the screen used boots, but the above picture is of actual Bundesmarine boots.

6. No X stitching for the pull tabs: First, take a look at the rectangle stitched on the side of the original boots as seen in the show. You can see this feature in the references I posted above.

Now look at the reproductions. That X should not be there.

By the way, the reproduction boots I'm referencing are great boots, but they're different than what we see in the show. This also gives a good closeup of the leather texture, i.e chrome tan vs. veg tan. If the reproductions are chrome tanned leather, they're smooth, but they appear to either be veg-tanned or faux leather.

Finally, This one's not that important, but a lot of manufacturers use cheaper leather (or faux leather) that doesn't have the same weight (thickness) as the originals. In order to ensure the threads don't rip through where the layers overlap, they often fold the edges over, giving the 1-2oz leather a 2-4oz appearance. This also causes the seams to really stick up tall which often results in cracking and tears along their edges. Here's a picture taken from a reproduction manufacturer's site so you have an idea what I'm talking about:
 

And, here's a picture of the Navy Sea Boot seams:

Much lower profile.

Also, of note, and totally not important for the CRL, but look how close the heel cup seam is to the front seam on the reproductions, then look at the picture of the originals. It's about an inch difference. Those seams should not be close to touching.

Again, neither of these are critical, nor should they be required even for level 2 approval, but they're something to look for if you're buying a set that's advertised as authentic. Often we have people selling reproductions, but advertising them as originals. Look for these cues to help determine if it's the real deal.

So after all my ramblings, this is what I'd say:

Boots

• Calf  Mid shin high black leather or leather like material. *The reason I choose mid shin (could be mid to upper shin) level is because "calf high" could imply bottom of knee. These aren't English riding, or Russian Officer, nor are they German police style boots. When we start talking about the shin armor, this will come into play.
• Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments.
• If seams are present on the shaft, they are at the rear only.
• Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1" (25.4mm).
• This need not be functional.
• Jackboot buckles should not be shiny/can be painted dingy grey or gun-metal color.
• Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed.
• If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black.
• German Bundesmarine Navy Sea boots (German Navy Jack Boots) “jack boot” style boots are most canon.
• Soles feature a modest heel
• Stitching is not present on the toe
• OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
• Boots are made of leather.
• Boots must be the German Navy Sea Boot style
• Sole design must be lower profile (no heavy tread or hobnails) and feature a modest heel.
• Rear "flap" does not extend lower the upper third of the rear boot height.
• Front top of boots are perforated
• Rectangular reinforcement stitching on sides of boots do not have an X sewn in the middle.

 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

26 minutes ago, BigJasoni said:

Ok. Per the references, which were very clear, we need to be very deliberate in our approach here. We kind of messed this up on the Imperial Andor Trooper (Aldhani), and need to go back and correct that, so let's make sure we get it right here. The boots they used on set are definitively German Navy Bundesmarine Sea Boots (German Bundesmarine Jack Boots). The German Navy Sea boots are significantly shorter than standard German jack boots, and nowhere near the Chrome Tanned Russian Officer boots used for the ICAT and Muddy. Additionally, we've already seen the top manufacturers start marketing their Tie Pilot Jack Boots as acceptable boots for this costume and they couldn't be more wrong.

Here's the issue with the current manufacturers:

1. Boots are too tall. The Bundesmarine Jack Boots are mid to upper shin level boots (depending on the trooper's height). This is most noticeable by how the shin armor never seems to stay put on any of the troopers during the Rix Road scene. Here's a picture of those non-armor guys marching around Ferrix in The Axe Forgets episode:

Next, I want to highlight what I was saying about the shin armor height and where the strap sits:

The height of the shin armor causes the strap to constantly sit above the top of the boot every time these guys move. If this were a taller jack boot (1942 style) or a Russian Officer Boot (Mudtrooper/ ICAT) both shin straps would remain on the leather.

2. "Chonky" soles. The soles of the Bundesmarine boots are flatter and designed to provide traction at sea. The above shots are a little blurry, but notice the much flatter sole with a minimal heel. All three pictures also highlight the shin strap placement and shorter "flap" on the back of the boot.
@pm07 posted a few pics of the boot soles back when we were discussing Aldhani:

Unfortunately these are pretty dark and we can't make out the design/ pattern. However, we can see in those pics that they were relatively smooth (likely due to extensive wear), but it is pretty clear that the soles were not "knobby." Back to Rix Road: 

Interestingly, in this picture, we actually see two different styles of Jack Boots. The one in the center is a very short "marching boot" style that was used later in WWII. As materials became scarce, the German army began shortening the shafts of the boot until ultimately they were left with ankle height boots and gaiters. This one is the "in-between" era boot, circa late 1943-1944. Additionally, there's no perforation on the front of the boot and the strap/ buckle are either very narrow or missing altogether.
We don't see very many examples of this in the show, so similar to the bicep conversation, I don't believe this was the intent of the costume department.

3. Long flap and incorrect buckles. Contrary to the marching boot, the other style we see in the above picture is the German Navy Sea Boot, which we got an extreme closeup of on Aldhani in The Eye episode. Again... different costume, but same props used.

Notice how the crescent shaped flap only extends downwards a couple inches. By contrast, a lot of the popular reproductions we're seeing have a long flap that extends nearly 2/3 of the length of the rear, towards  the heel stitching. 

Additionally, in every reference shot, we have boots with "subdued" buckles, not chrome. If you get a boot with chrome buckles, you might as well break out the Sharpie.

4. Boots are not perforated (holes) in the front. Unfortunately, I can't find the picture that distinctly shows the peroration on the front of the boot, but I know it was visible in several scenes. If someone else finds this reference, please post it.

Finally, I wanted to post a picture of my Bundesmarine German Navy Sea Boots. These are very difficult to find, but if you look hard enough, you'll find some. If you're size 7-9, Hessen Antique has some used sets for cheap, but anything larger will require an extensive search or ordering from overseas if you're in the US. Of note, my boots have surprisingly never been worn, so the sole is actually thicker than most you'll find that are old and heavily worn.

 

So after all my ramblings, this is what I'd say:

Boots

• Calf  Mid shin high black leather or leather like material. *The reason I choose mid shin (could be mid to upper shin) level is because "calf high" could imply bottom of knee. These aren't English riding, or Russian Officer, nor are they German police style boots. When we start talking about the shin armor, this will come into play.
• Free of laces, decorative stitching, buckles on the instep or any other embellishments.
• If seams are present on the shaft, they are at the rear only.
• Boots may have a single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot, with the buckle no wider than 1" (25.4mm).
• This need not be functional.
• Jackboot buckles should not be shiny/can be painted dingy grey or gun-metal color.
• Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable, so long as they are concealed.
• If the zipper is not covered by vinyl/ leather, it is painted black.
• German Bundesmarine Navy Sea boots (German Navy Jack Boots) “jack boot” style boots are most canon.
• Soles feature a modest heel
• Stitching is not present on the toe
• OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
• Boots are made of leather.
• Boots must be the German Navy Sea Boot style
• Sole design must be lower profile (no heavy traction knobs or hobnails) and feature a modest heel.
• Rear "flap" does not extend lower the upper third of the rear boot height.
• Front top of boots are perforated

 

So looking at my boots again... my soles and heels are very close to yours.  I think the main difference is as I got extremely lucky and found a pair of unused 13s, they have not been worn down in the way others have been.  I agree with what you've written.  "Heavy traction knobs" might throw people off.  I'd probably just leave it as hob nails.  

[BigJasoni[TX]]

1 hour ago, NoZoupForYou said:

So looking at my boots again... my soles and heels are very close to yours.  I think the main difference is as I got extremely lucky and found a pair of unused 13s, they have not been worn down in the way others have been.  I agree with what you've written.  "Heavy traction knobs" might throw people off.  I'd probably just leave it as hob nails.  

😆I'm editing it. Tread is the word I was looking for.

[Detaleader[501st]]

Sorry if I missed something here, but I'm not sure if this is quite the right approach. 

Ultimately, the jackboots used on TIE, crew, etc, should all be mid calf height anyway. They boots used here aren't higher or lower at all, especially when you take variety in actor height into consideration. To illustrate, here's a few OT era pics: 

Those boots aren't very tall, and if you were to strap shin armor onto that, it would have the same issues with straps as the guys on Andor would. You can also clearly see how the officer boots are much higher. 

The wording used on JRS CRLs reads: 

• Boots must be mid-calf height, Officer height tall boots or similar are not acceptable.

I would personally prefer keeping as much wording from that JRS read as possible. Nobody wants to go out and buy a new set of boots for what is effectively the same. To say we have a fundamentally different boot is wrong imo.

X sewn into the pull tabs? Why would we specify a thing that only some replicas have, when it can't be found on actual jackboots. 

I also don't think these are German Navy boots at all. I'll show you two key features as to why I think this: 

1) Drain holes. The top of Navy Boots features a set of drain holes. Why they have that, I cannot say, but I cannot see any of them at all on the references for Aldhani nor Ferrix. 

2) Top Seam. You can see a seam running all the way along the circumference of the boot shaft near the height of the top buckle. This is where the drain holes would be too. I've taken liberty to highlight this seam. You will note it is most prominently visible on the third boot in the back. 

In German the Term "Knobelbecher" is colloquially used for all various kinds of marching boots that have a shaft and no laces. I don't think we need to replace that word necessarily. Heel height would be eliminated by that also. 

Personally, I don't think I'd specify tread type. We're not the RPF and frankly, if you are standing on your boots, nobody is gonna look at your tread. You are literally standing on it after all

Here's what I think this all boils down to: Many CRLs at some point had "calf height" as requirement. And that was just never really correct in the first place. Some CRLs have since been corrected to mid-calf, but this has over time created a larger amount of people that have used too tall boots with their TIEs, Crew, etc. We obviously don't want to push that error forward. To say these are fundamentally different I would disagree however. 

I think we should just use the wording from the TIE CRL. It's spot on, describes the right features (ie, be lower, don't be an officer boot) and leaves people with the opportunity to reuse their boots (should they have the right height of course) 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

3 hours ago, Detaleader said:

Sorry if I missed something here, but I'm not sure if this is quite the right approach. 

Ultimately, the jackboots used on TIE, crew, etc, should all be mid calf height anyway. They boots used here aren't higher or lower at all, especially when you take variety in actor height into consideration. To illustrate, here's a few OT era pics: 

Those boots aren't very tall, and if you were to strap shin armor onto that, it would have the same issues with straps as the guys on Andor would. You can also clearly see how the officer boots are much higher. 

The wording used on JRS CRLs reads: 

• Boots must be mid-calf height, Officer height tall boots or similar are not acceptable.

I would personally prefer keeping as much wording from that JRS read as possible. Nobody wants to go out and buy a new set of boots for what is effectively the same. To say we have a fundamentally different boot is wrong imo.

X sewn into the pull tabs? Why would we specify a thing that only some replicas have, when it can't be found on actual jackboots. 

I also don't think these are German Navy boots at all. I'll show you two key features as to why I think this: 

1) Drain holes. The top of Navy Boots features a set of drain holes. Why they have that, I cannot say, but I cannot see any of them at all on the references for Aldhani nor Ferrix. 

2) Top Seam. You can see a seam running all the way along the circumference of the boot shaft near the height of the top buckle. This is where the drain holes would be too. I've taken liberty to highlight this seam. You will note it is most prominently visible on the third boot in the back. 

In German the Term "Knobelbecher" is colloquially used for all various kinds of marching boots that have a shaft and no laces. I don't think we need to replace that word necessarily. Heel height would be eliminated by that also. 

Personally, I don't think I'd specify tread type. We're not the RPF and frankly, if you are standing on your boots, nobody is gonna look at your tread. You are literally standing on it after all

Here's what I think this all boils down to: Many CRLs at some point had "calf height" as requirement. And that was just never really correct in the first place. Some CRLs have since been corrected to mid-calf, but this has over time created a larger amount of people that have used too tall boots with their TIEs, Crew, etc. We obviously don't want to push that error forward. To say these are fundamentally different I would disagree however. 

I think we should just use the wording from the TIE CRL. It's spot on, describes the right features (ie, be lower, don't be an officer boot) and leaves people with the opportunity to reuse their boots (should they have the right height of course) 

They are definitely not the same boots as the Tie Fighter boots.  I (having done a CRL myself) am generally against borrowing or using verbatim language from other CRLs, especially for costumes that were created 40 odd years ago, versus something created recently.  

I understand the desire to simplify and make things easier, per se, but we must temper what it right with what easy.

Personally, I think the current edits to the boot section are good as is.  Tie boots would likely still qualify for basic as L1 is currently written (but I'd have to go back and check.  Not too familiar with Tie Fighter boots.)

[Detaleader[501st]]

40 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

They are definitely not the same boots as the Tie Fighter boots.  [...]

(but I'd have to go back and check.  Not too familiar with Tie Fighter boots.)

As I've elaborated above, it certainly isn't navy boots  I'll just post some more angles on the TIE boots, just for the hell of it. I think they're remarkably close, in shape of the boot's upper, heel placement, no-tread/subtle tread soles, shaft height, etc. 

 

Oh and one more thing: The flap with the adjustment strap? Not all of the Ferrix Troopers actually have that. Like all recent productions, whatever boots are available are used.  

 

Also what the hell is going on with this boot? 

 

[BigJasoni[TX]]

24 minutes ago, Detaleader said:

As I've elaborated above, it certainly isn't navy boots  I'll just post some more angles on the TIE boots, just for the hell of it. I think they're remarkably close, in shape of the boot's upper, heel placement, no-tread/subtle tread soles, shaft height, etc. 

 

Oh and one more thing: The flap with the adjustment strap? Not all of the Ferrix Troopers actually have that. Like all recent productions, whatever boots are available are used.  

 

Also what the hell is going on with this boot? 

 

Ok, this is why I asked if someone could find the reference showing the holes. I'll start looking for it again, because it's clearly visible.

As I pointed out previously, that picture of the crowd shows several different versions of the boots, so ultimately we need to determine what the intent was. There is a clearly visible marching boot shown; that's the "what the hell" question above. Additionally, we already decided previously that the non-armored Ferrix trooper is a different costume altogether. Yes, they're the same soft parts, and I did post a picture of the guys marching around in them just to show the boots, but we can't refer to them as our source. The guys I posted a picture of were deliberately placed in the shot, so they were wearing identical costumes.

The non armored guy in the picture above isn't wearing the same boots and as you stated, they likely went with whatever was available. This is why we had background TKs in the Mandalorian Season 2 wearing gray boots. However, the guys who are up front and deliberately shown are all wearing the same thing. Background "extras" shouldn't be considered. IMO this is one of the things we did wrong with the Aldhani trooper.

Every trooper we see in armor has a strap on their boot. If you can find an example of an armored trooper without a strap/ flap, I'll concede, but again, what's the intent and were these guys background extras?

The JRS didn't do anyone any favors by specifically identifying Knobelbechers as their level 3 requirement. That's like saying "white Chelsea boots" for a stormtrooper; there's too many Knobelbecher variants. So, it's always left up to the GMLs to hold the standard, and the detachment to identify higher level acceptance. The problem we run into is GMLs who don't, or bend the standard a little just to facilitate someone. I don't enjoy buying multiple sets of boots, but I do it in order to maintain the Legion's charter which states "quality costumes." For me, I've personally sourced white flat soled Chelsea boots, Knobelbecher Bundesmarines, chrome tanned Russian officer boots, English riding boots, Doc Marten Jereds, Sketchers Blaine Orsens, and 3 pairs of Orca Bay Brecons. It's just part of the hobby.    

So ultimately, there's 5 variants of the Knobelbecher, and it's a much different style boot than a standard jack boot. Spoiler alert... the Bundesmarine boot I cited is a variant of the Knobelbecher.

Knobelbecher Bundeswehr: This is visible in one of the pictures above. It's likely the marching boot shown in the above picture, but Knobelbecher Bundeswehrs have the strap, buckle and flap... every single time. However, it's also constructed using smooth leather, which isn't visible in our Andor troopers.

 Knobelbecher Bundesmarine: Same as the Knobelbecher Bundeswehr, but has textured leather (chrome tan), vice the smooth, likely veg tanned leather found on the Bundeswehr. Additionally, as we discussed, the Bundesmarine has the holes, but the big factor here is the chrome tanned (textured) leather we see in every reference photo.

Side note: these are approvable for tie pilot costumes, but the holes need to be filled.

Knobelbecher Marschstiefel jackboots are generally slightly higher without the adjustment strap, and have a metal horseshoe and studs on the sole. We don't see any examples of this anywhere on the show.

Knobelbecher Wachmatallion: Same as the Bundeswehr, but taller and don't have the adjustment strap. Most reproductions are modeled after these, or companies will do a boot that's the height of the Wachmatallion, but includes the Bundeswehr/ Bundesmarine strap. Keep Trooping (Imperial Boots) and Crowprops are examples. While both vendors should be considered for basic approval, these vendors use smooth leather, they're too tall and there's big issues with the soles/ heels on both boots. IMO neither should be considered for higher level approval, but I'd let them go for basic approval depending on the height of the boot shaft. 

Knobelbecher Seestiefe: Also sea boots, but are fur lined and have zippers.

As I stated previously, there are clear pictures of the boots on screen showing the drain holes, I just have to watch all these episodes again to find it. I thought I posted that picture previously, but failed to do so. I'll find them.

 

[Hoda[CMD-DCA]]

On 10/21/2023 at 4:52 AM, Detaleader said:

Personally, I don't think I'd specify tread type. We're not the RPF and frankly, if you are standing on your boots, nobody is gonna look at your tread. You are literally standing on it after all

This. I think this discussion is very much getting into RPF territory, folks.

I think the original boot text from @Blackwatchis good enough for lvl 1. Like mentioned somewhere in this text mountain, the reality is, CRL is crafted as reference guides for GMLs and honestly, most won't be able to tell the difference. Most of these conversation about boots details should sit in lvl 2 if at all. 

Honestly, if people want to go for prop accuracy, go for it! No one stops you from doing that! 

I am of the camp that we lock this language and move on, and then honestly, we can continue debate how much of this discussion to include in L2 later on.

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

This has been an educational discussion I have a new set of crowprops boots , coming off of 16 inch tall Engineer boots which fell apart after being re-soled a couple of times, and going to these, they ARE smaller but I can tell they are taller than what was used on screen for pilots and crew.  I have big , wide feet, so buying any sort of authentic boot has been a no go since I joined in 2008.  Buying boots and hoping they fit has also been a gamble when dealing with a vendor.  

To get an accurate boot , either by sourcing a accurate boot online (If you can) the other option is to  convince the makers to create an accurae boot to begin with.  it doesnt seem like there has been much inclination on their part to do so, otherwise they wouuld have already been making a boot accurate to the both both in design and in height compared to references. 

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

So then... Keep the L1 wording as already written, and all matters of "screen accuracy" move to table two?  Works for me.

[BigJasoni[TX]]

On 10/25/2023 at 8:35 AM, Hoda said:

This. I think this discussion is very much getting into RPF territory, folks.

I think the original boot text from @Blackwatchis good enough for lvl 1. Like mentioned somewhere in this text mountain, the reality is, CRL is crafted as reference guides for GMLs and honestly, most won't be able to tell the difference. Most of these conversation about boots details should sit in lvl 2 if at all. 

Honestly, if people want to go for prop accuracy, go for it! No one stops you from doing that! 

I am of the camp that we lock this language and move on, and then honestly, we can continue debate how much of this discussion to include in L2 later on.

Tread should be considered not for what's unseen, but rather what is seen. For example, for the Rogue One TK, the actors had a "hole" on the sole of their boots to simulate the peg holes seen on the original Kenner action figures. This detail wasn't added to the CRL, but flat soles were.

In the Ferrix trooper, what we see is a sole that has a relatively low profile. The reason I point out the tread is to ensure we don't have people walking around with "stomper" soles, which raise the boots and make them look like something totally different that what's seen on screen. Everything I've mentioned is based off of what we see on screen; stating that "German Jack Boot style is most canon" as was originally written, is inaccurate.

Yes, the CRLs are written as a guide for the GMLs, and most won't be able to tell the difference, but they should try. As I stated in my last post, Crowprops and KeepTrooping should be considered for L1 approval, as should standard Jack Boots, but I think @Blackwatch actually made an extraordinary point when he said the following:  

On 10/25/2023 at 9:26 AM, Blackwatch said:

To get an accurate boot , either by sourcing a accurate boot online (If you can) the other option is to  convince the makers to create an accurae boot to begin with.  it doesnt seem like there has been much inclination on their part to do so, otherwise they wouuld have already been making a boot accurate to the both both in design and in height compared to references. 

So, why haven't these manufacturers made an accurate boot? Because the Detachments enable them to do so. This is why my buddy ordered Mudtrooper/ ICAT armor, but was sent a Shoretrooper back. When he questioned the maker, he was told to "make it work." I posted the pictures previously. We shouldn't contribute to this. When a person wants to make a costume, we should be able to point them in the right direction and not force them to just settle.

As a maker myself, I can affirm that it saves me a ton of money to disregard research and development, but I do it in order to help out the community. Vincent over at KeepTrooping does an excellent job and freely posts his references and the work involved and that's why I've spent more money than I'd care to spend at his store. But, the other big issues I've witnessed in CRL development, is detachments who disregard accuracy in favor of getting something done quickly. If we don't want to pursue greater accuracy, then maybe we shouldn't create a level 2 requirement until later. 

Regardless, other than the "German Jack Boot Style is most canon" statement, I agree with Sean's comment:

On 10/25/2023 at 10:04 AM, NoZoupForYou said:

So then... Keep the L1 wording as already written, and all matters of "screen accuracy" move to table two?  Works for me.

  However, for level 2, I would change my original verbiage to

• OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
• Boots are made of leather.
• Boots must be the German Knobelbecher Bundeswehr, or Knobelbecher Bundesmarine style
• Sole design must be lower profile (no heavy tread or hobnails) and feature a modest heel.
• Rear "flap" does not extend lower the upper third of the rear boot height.
• Front top of boots are perforated
• Rectangular reinforcement stitching on sides of boots do not have an X sewn in the middle.

[NoZoupForYou[501st]]

3 minutes ago, BigJasoni said:

Tread should be considered not for what's unseen, but rather what is seen. For example, for the Rogue One TK, the actors had a "hole" on the sole of their boots to simulate the peg holes seen on the original Kenner action figures. This detail wasn't added to the CRL, but flat soles were.

In the Ferrix trooper, what we see is a sole that has a relatively low profile. The reason I point out the tread is to ensure we don't have people walking around with "stomper" soles, which raise the boots and make them look like something totally different that what's seen on screen. Everything I've mentioned is based off of what we see on screen; stating that "German Jack Boot style is most canon" as was originally written, is inaccurate.

Yes, the CRLs are written as a guide for the GMLs, and most won't be able to tell the difference, but they should try. As I stated in my last post, Crowprops and KeepTrooping should be considered for L1 approval, as should standard Jack Boots, but I think @Blackwatch actually made an extraordinary point when he said the following:  

So, why haven't these manufacturers made an accurate boot? Because the Detachments enable them to do so. This is why my buddy ordered Mudtrooper/ ICAT armor, but was sent a Shoretrooper back. When he questioned the maker, he was told to "make it work." I posted the pictures previously. We shouldn't contribute to this. When a person wants to make a costume, we should be able to point them in the right direction and not force them to just settle.

As a maker myself, I can affirm that it saves me a ton of money to disregard research and development, but I do it in order to help out the community. Vincent over at KeepTrooping does an excellent job and freely posts his references and the work involved and that's why I've spent more money than I'd care to spend at his store. But, the other big issues I've witnessed in CRL development, is detachments who disregard accuracy in favor of getting something done quickly. If we don't want to pursue greater accuracy, then maybe we shouldn't create a level 2 requirement until later. 

Regardless, other than the "German Jack Boot Style is most canon" statement, I agree with Sean's comment:

  However, for level 2, I would change my original verbiage to

• OPTIONAL Level two certification (if applicable):
• Boots are made of leather.
• Boots must be the German Knobelbecher Bundeswehr, or Knobelbecher Bundesmarine style
• Sole design must be lower profile (no heavy tread or hobnails) and feature a modest heel.
• Rear "flap" does not extend lower the upper third of the rear boot height.
• Front top of boots are perforated
• Rectangular reinforcement stitching on sides of boots do not have an X sewn in the middle.

I'm in concurrence with Jason's proposed changes for Level II. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

ok, im gong to take another stab at this.   I dont feel that we are rushing anything, since Im averaging a week when I can get back in to comment, so I certainly do not feel or see a rush to development in this process, as we are spending pages discussing each item.  

I have never seen a boot like this before. I certainly would nt know where to get one since Keep Trooping has refused to make them in my size (13 extra wide) because he does not have a form for a boot that size.   That said, that limits what I person CAN get off of Ebay, which leaves us back at the same situation we have been in since I joined this club in 2008, expecially for those of us born with really big, really wide feet and 24 inch calves;  we get what we can , that fits. I have spent almost 1,000 dollar on boots this year alone, all custom made, and each has been a HUGE gamble if it will fit when i get it trough the mail from overseas. 

its up to each costume bilder to build to the accuracy level they prefer.  So, given what WE HAVE available to us now, a mid calf boot is going to look very differnt on me than on several of the people I troop with because Im taller than them.  Its still a mid calf boot at the end of the day, but it varies, whethere it lands on the shin, or the calf. The boot is the boot, make the way the manufacturer made it. 

 

So, lets look at this proposal. Honestly Ive lost count so Im going to rename this :

Boot propsal V.2.0

• Boot rises to no higher than mid-shin, and is leather or leather lke material. 
• There are no laces, decorative stitches, embellishments or buckles on the instep.
• If seams are present they are at the rear only. 
• A single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot may be present. The buckle is no wider than 1" (25.4mm).  This need not be functional. 
• Strap adjustment buckle is dingy gunmetal color, or dingy grey. It shall not be shiny/ chrome. 
• Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable as long as they are concealed. 
• If the zipper is not covered by a vinyl or leather strip, it is painted black. 
• For basic approval the soles may feature a more agressive tread. 
• German Bundesmarine Navy Sea Boots (or authentic replica) are most canon. 

 

• OPTIONAL Level two certification (If applicable):
• Boots are made of leather
• German Knobelbecher Bundesmarine or Knobelbecher Bundeswehr style, accurate in hieght and design. 
• Sole must be a lower profile, with no hobnails,  modest tread and modest heel. 
• The rear flap does not extend lower than one-third the hieght of the boot shaft. 
• Rectangular reinforcement stiching does not have an "X" stitched into the rectangle.  

 

[BigJasoni[TX]]

2 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

ok, im gong to take another stab at this.   I dont feel that we are rushing anything, since Im averaging a week when I can get back in to comment, so I certainly do not feel or see a rush to development in this process, as we are spending pages discussing each item. 

I agree 100%. I don't think any of this has been rushed. I actually think we're doing a great job in ensuring this is done right, without rushing the process, so please, keep up the awesome work.

2 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

I have never seen a boot like this before. I certainly would nt know where to get one since Keep Trooping has refused to make them in my size (13 extra wide) because he does not have a form for a boot that size.   

So... Sean was able to find a size 13 and I picked up a 12. They're definitely out there, it just takes a little more time to find them than what we're used to. Overseas vendors seem to have plenty of them, so if you're entertaining the idea of ordering from Crowprops (who has pretty steep shipping costs) ordering the real thing from a European source will actually cost less. Additionally, these boots are naturally wider than any other jack boots I've ever found. I'm not sure why, but they definitely are.

Regardless, just the same as when I ordered my Orca Bay Brecons from the UK for the Shorey, and the Chrome Russian Officer boots from Ukraine for the Muddy, I think it's appropriate to name the identified boots as a level 2 requirement. However, I'd also be totally fine seeing any mid-shin height jack boot used for basic approval. That's been my stance from the beginning.

2 hours ago, Blackwatch said:

Boot propsal V.2.0

• Boot rises to no higher than mid-shin, and is leather or leather lke material. 
• There are no laces, decorative stitches, embellishments or buckles on the instep.
• If seams are present they are at the rear only. 
• A single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot may be present. The buckle is no wider than 1" (25.4mm).  This need not be functional. 
• Strap adjustment buckle is dingy gunmetal color, or dingy grey. It shall not be shiny/ chrome. 
• Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable as long as they are concealed. 
• If the zipper is not covered by a vinyl or leather strip, it is painted black. 
• For basic approval the soles may feature a more agressive tread. 
• German Bundesmarine Navy Sea Boots (or authentic replica) are most canon. 

 

• OPTIONAL Level two certification (If applicable):
• Boots are made of leather
• German Knobelbecher Bundesmarine or Knobelbecher Bundeswehr style, accurate in hieght and design. 
• Sole must be a lower profile, with no hobnails,  modest tread and modest heel. 
• The rear flap does not extend lower than one-third the hieght of the boot shaft. 
• Rectangular reinforcement stiching does not have an "X" stitched into the rectangle.  

Other than a few spelling errors, I think this is all excellent.   

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Ive got some things to deal with here at work this morning,then Ill circle back to this.  

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

wow has it been ten days already. i got real busy there for a minute.  Ok back to this. 

 

There hasnt been further comment or discusson so I believe we are in agreement that this style of boot will be a better fit for us than the traditional Jack. Ill continue to look on Ebay for these in larger sizes.

 

Boot proposal V.2.0 (FINAL)

• Boot rises to no higher than mid-shin, and is leather or a leather-like material. 
• There are no laces, decorative stitches, embellishments or buckles on the instep.
• If seams are present they are at the rear only. 
• A single adjustment strap at the top outside of the boot may be present. The buckle is no wider than 1" (25.4mm).  This need not be functional. 
• Strap adjustment buckle is dingy gunmetal color, or dingy grey. It shall not be shiny / chrome. 
• Zippers on the inside of the boot are acceptable as long as they are concealed. 
• If the zipper is not covered by a vinyl or leather strip, it is painted black. 
• For basic approval the soles may feature a more agressive tread. 
• German Bundesmarine Navy Sea Boots (or authentic replica) are most canon. 

 

• OPTIONAL Level two certification (If applicable):
• Boots are made of leather
• German Knobelbecher Bundesmarine or Knobelbecher Bundeswehr style, accurate in hieght and design. 
• Sole must be a lower profile, with no hobnails,  modest tread and modest heel. 
• The rear flap does not extend lower than one-third the height of the boot shaft. 
• Rectangular reinforcement stiching does not have an "X" stitched into the rectangle.