CRL Development - Imperial Army Sapper (Complete)

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

2 hours ago, pm07 said:

Would this work as the base of the Engineer pack frame?






 

I’d say no . It was discussed earlier and there’s substantial evidence to say there is no pack frame .

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I have a few suggestions  I’d like to put forward is the ideas of an approvable pack that meets a bare minimum of requirements. 

Example : An approved pack must meet at least 2 options from a list of say 4. ( not including the long tube charge on top , which is required on all packs ) 

A. Shovel

B. Demo charge type 1

C. Demo Charge type 2

D. Explosives string 

etc..

This gives people the option to have some variety with their packs while still meeting a minimum requirement for approval as well as covering the inconsistent pack accessories in the comic . 

 

Another item I’d like to bring forward is the possibility of changing the name of the CRL to Imperial Army Sapper . I believe it’d help distinguish it from the current Army Engineer CRL based not only on the specialized equipment that separates the two but how they are different in the Dark Horse Comics . 

Edited August 28, 2018 by TX-15293

[RAIDER[COTG]]

21 hours ago, TX-15293 said:

I have a few suggestions  I’d like to put forward is the ideas of an approvable pack that meets a bare minimum of requirements. 

Example : An approved pack must meet at least 2 options from a list of say 4. ( not including the long tube charge on top , which is required on all packs ) 

A. Shovel

B. Demo charge type 1

C. Demo Charge type 2

D. Explosives string 

etc..

This gives people the option to have some variety with their packs while still meeting a minimum requirement for approval as well as covering the inconsistent pack accessories in the comic . 

 

Another item I’d like to bring forward is the possibility of changing the name of the CRL to Imperial Army Sapper . I believe it’d help distinguish it from the current Army Engineer CRL based not only on the specialized equipment that separates the two but how they are different in the Dark Horse Comics . 

In the current write-up, I see where it states the top tube is required (though there is an example of a pack sans top tube)…could be one requirement even though it's not in every single panel?  Then following, I see where we have written that there should be EITHER the long tube on right OR the pack (1 requirement for base there).  Then below that, EITHER a shovel or string of charges or both (2nd requirement)…with 2 total charges combined minimum.  So while it's not a rigid base standard pack, the requirements seem clear cut enough.

 

Here's a bit of a different idea…the MEPD sandy pack CRL uses this line...

Option: If choosing to replicate a screen used configuration of equipment, specific style backpacks are required.

It then links to the several specific screen used configurations of the pack/ammo pouches.  Do something similar to what we see demonstrated in the panels as accurate configurations…leaving other configurations using options as  Level 1?

One last item...

Left trooper…what do we have there on his chest?  Is that a chest piece attached to the pack harness?  Looks like the right trooper has it as well but its cut off in the artwork.

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I think that’s a great idea . Especially since the Engineer pack is somewhat based on the Sandy pack .

As for the chest pouch I think we decided it was attached to the suspenders.Thats how mine is attached .

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

1 hour ago, Raider said:

In the current write-up, I see where it states the top tube is required (though there is an example of a pack sans top tube)…could be one requirement even though it's not in every single panel?  Then following, I see where we have written that there should be EITHER the long tube on right OR the pack (1 requirement for base there).  Then below that, EITHER a shovel or string of charges or both (2nd requirement)…with 2 total charges combined minimum.  So while it's not a rigid base standard pack, the requirements seem clear cut enough.

Here's a bit of a different idea…the MEPD sandy pack CRL uses this line...

Option: If choosing to replicate a screen used configuration of equipment, specific style backpacks are required.

It then links to the several specific screen used configurations of the pack/ammo pouches.  Do something similar to what we see demonstrated in the panels as accurate configurations…leaving other configurations using options as  Level 1?

One last item...

Left trooper…what do we have there on his chest?  Is that a chest piece attached to the pack harness?  Looks like the right trooper has it as well but its cut off in the artwork.

Raider I have read and re-read your point about L2 and L1 approval for packs.  If I read it correctly, L1 is basic pack,  with a standardized , set charge.   L2 would be options per a single individual pack. 

 Would this also require matching belt pouch layout? 

23 hours ago, TX-15293 said:

I have a few suggestions  I’d like to put forward is the ideas of an approvable pack that meets a bare minimum of requirements. 

Example : An approved pack must meet at least 2 options from a list of say 4. ( not including the long tube charge on top , which is required on all packs ) 

A. Shovel

B. Demo charge type 1

C. Demo Charge type 2

D. Explosives string 

etc..

This gives people the option to have some variety with their packs while still meeting a minimum requirement for approval as well as covering the inconsistent pack accessories in the comic . 

 

Another item I’d like to bring forward is the possibility of changing the name of the CRL to Imperial Army Sapper . I believe it’d help distinguish it from the current Army Engineer CRL based not only on the specialized equipment that separates the two but how they are different in the Dark Horse Comics . 

Neal that was my original intent, a level of mix and match up to the person laying out the pack.  Looking between the three options, and after consideration (as well as experience as a judge with mix and match Rebel Commandos), IMO it may be better to go with the L1 L2 setup described by Raider above.  If a Sapper wants a specific layout, match the panel.  For a L1 layout, we pick a basic layout (IE top charge, side charge, bottom charge, shovel). 

 

Im with you on the use of the term Sapper ; I do not want to start an all new topic, but the term has been used quite a bit within the forum.    Lets get the CRL bits nailed, then lets discuss why we feel its the more correct term for the art.   

 

 

[pm07[TX]]

On ‎8‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:48 PM, TX-15293 said:

I’d say no . It was discussed earlier and there’s substantial evidence to say there is no pack frame .

Okay. I was just thinking if they could integrate the boxes into the 'frame' so it doesn't look like a frame..just a thought. Ill go back to my corner now LOL

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

if you can totally hide it, maybe? Im going to start with a slab and work out from there. 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I have looked at all the field gear for the Sappers I think it should be as follows :

2x Black Molle handcuff pouches with button snaps . One on each side of the belt on the left and right of the buckle .

2x Black MP40 Pouches ( Leather or canvas )on both the left and right sides of the belt behind the handcuff pouches .

2x Black Molle Strobe pouches on both right and left sides of the belt behind the MP40 pouches .

Optional Pouches :

Large Rear pouch ( Molle Gas Mask Pouch ?)  with button snaps at the rear of the belt . 

Side GP Pouch . Possibly attached around the waist with a strap separate from the web gear ( Kinda like an M17 Gas Mask pouch ) 

Black Chest Pouch ( Molle SAW pouch ) mounted on a cross strap attached to the suspenders . 

Again just like the combat pack there’s a lot of room for optional items for people . 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Looks like a good roundup of the items seen in the art.  The Sappers have more gear and some of us already have most of this. I altered the pouch portion of the CRL to reflect it.  The chest pouch has its own entry, and snaps were already an L2 requirement coming over from the original Engineer CRL.

 

Here is a possible pouch for that dump pouch on the side:       https://tacticalgear.com/blackhawk-utility-nalgene-bottle-pouch-black?hp=y

 

• What I DO find odd is the lack of E11 holster on the LBE belt, even though they are carrying E11s. The Army trooper has it but I have not found it on the Sapper.

 

• What are our collective points of view on the proposals made last night regarding the pack layout, as a L1 (standardized pack ) or L2 (pick a guy and stick with that layout) ?

[RAIDER[COTG]]

@Blackwatch Yes you summarized what I was trying to say perfectly lol.  L1 create a base standard (and it seems we have set those parameters somewhat already in the original write-up) and L2 reference specific panel configs of the pack....that's just an idea.

@pm07 This goes back to my original question regarding pack.  If the look can be achieved and the frame can be hidden, can that work (for L1?)?  It's hard to say until it's built, BUT the panels do seem to reflect a frame-less pack for sure and so that would be what we would write-up methinks.

I see Neal's pouches and the E-11 holster question, but I'm going to keep focus on the pack till we are set on that before moving elsewhere.

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

For the basic pack I’d say do the Basic pack plus one charge as the minimal for the L1 requirements . 

And for L2 have it be required that they must have a minimal amount of the optional accessories . 

As for the E-11 I don’t think we need to worry about the holster . There isn’t one in the art so there shouldn’t be one In the CRL . If a trooper decides to add a holster after approval then they can . 

 

For the Dump pouch I’m using this

 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

I'm at work today and I tried to reply on the work computers but it did not go through.

I am on board with the L1  L2 proposal. 

Heres what I propose: 

L1:  Basic four box pack with top charge plus shovel. This is seen in the last art source on the first page of the proposal.

L2:   At least four options from the list, set up as a source art trooper.  Pick a trooper and stay with his layout.  

 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

I like the idea but I’d replace the shovel with the pouch on the side of the pack as that seems more consistent than the shovel . 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

As for the various troopers I think it can be narrowed down 

option 1 : Charge on the bottom of the pack and shovel 

Option 2 : String of charges and side charge 

 

These two have the best visuals of the pack and all their details . 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

The sappers need a way to plant the charges, hence the shovel.  Its seen in as many views as the pouch, and just as often appear

in pairs.  We also have views troopers digging. 

Ill make up a shovel and a side pouch this week and post the plans. I Plan on sintra for the shovel, all of the art shows it being like stamped steel. 

So lets move forward with your proposal, with one guy with a shovel and one guy with a string & side charge   Since the pouch is seen on both, and since its easy to make, I would like to see it on both versions of the pack.  All will maintain the top charge.  

I worked out my pack today and wondered how in the heck I was going to have a bottom charge down there with that pouch hanging off the belt.  There is art, then there is reality. 

 

https://i.imgur.com/xOvzr9b.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3CesUv3.jpg

 

[RAIDER[COTG]]

Yes @TX-15293 I like those as configs of the pack for L2.  Thanks for laying those out.  Also...thanks for clarifying what that was on the chest.  Chest pouch.  Got it.  Going through the panels, that DOES NOT appear on every trooper.  Some have no pack at all.  This is currently not listed as an optional accessory though.  Thoughts?

In regards to @Blackwatch question...yes I think we should try if at all possible to have configs of pouches and gear match for L2 depending on the type of backpack being used.  If we can't do that, then we may need to snub the idea altogether.  May need to hit up @izzi and/or the LMO for feedback on that.

So If I'm correct, we can clearly identify 2 pack configs (for now I will nickname them Shovel and No-Shovel).  Can we see the pouch configs for each of those troopers?

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

@Raider Let’s assume that the field gear configuration is the same for all engineers, not including the chest pouch  of course . As I listed above it’s basically a set of Molle Handcuff pouches at the front , a set of Mp40 pouches at the side , a set of Molle Strobe pouches near the rear and a optional large pouch at the rear center . As for the optional gear it’s a dump pouch worn at the waist , the chest pouch and the rear pouch . I can take some photos of what I have together so far , just waiting on the  pack . 

[izzi[TX]]

I'm getting things settled with life, so I'll be poking in more often now.

I'll read into things a bit more throughly later, but as far as the shovel goes it should be on every pack. The picture below actually demonstrates it being on both the pack with the large lower detonator and the one with the string charges. We can safely assume that the picture which shows a trooper without in on his pack from a rear angle is due to the fact he's carrying it in front of him.  This is supported by the further panels showing them digging to plant the charges. 

I'll look into the pouch setups, this will most likely be like the other IA units, where you have types of pouches to choice from and just have to hit a set number to be worn.

-iz

[RAIDER[COTG]]

@izzi!!!  Awesome!

I understand the logic there on the shovel.  Makes sense.  It is absent in several of the pack examples in the panels though.  Could it be just as safe to assume that the sappers are working as demolition "teams" and therefore not every trooper would need/have the shovel?  The shovel handle itself does appear to creep up above the top edge of the pack and even on frontal views of the troopers not all have the handle peeking up there (pre-dig panel).  Playing some devil's advocate there I suppose.  Just a thought. I'm prob the minority on that one lol.

[Scubacat[TX]]

[mention=3]izzi[/mention]!!!  Awesome!
I understand the logic there on the shovel.  Makes sense.  It is absent in several of the pack examples in the panels though.  Could it be just as safe to assume that the sappers are working as demolition "teams" and therefore not every trooper would need/have the shovel?  The shovel handle itself does appear to creep up above the top edge of the pack and even on frontal views of the troopers not all have the handle peeking up there (pre-dig panel).  Playing some devil's advocate there I suppose.  Just a thought. I'm prob the minority on that one lol.

I feel that is a good assumption. I also thought I saw in the one panel actual markings on the top tube. I will try to find where I saw that. If we are having the option for different packs, then we need to make a list for all of the different types of variants we see outright. I am thinking how MEPD has with their different troopers. Each pack is different and has it set in stone what you can and can’t have between the different styles.


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[ShovelGuy[501st]]

@Raider I agree that there’s  enough evidence to suggest not all Sappers have a a shovel and that they may be working in teams .

@izzi As for the pouches it’s very evident that most if not all sappers are wearing the not only the same pouches but in the same configuration. Unlike the Army Trooper or Engineer I don’t think the Sapper is a costume where people can sorta do whatever they want like the previous two , which show enough variation between Trooper to warrant that . 

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

Good News the prototype pack is currently being worked on . It is following all of things listed in the Purposed CRL and should cover both variations of the L2 pack , Pack with Shovel and Pack with Grenade string . Hopefully it’ll be done within a month or so . 

 

I would like to revisit the helmet portion of the CRL . After looking at all the panels it appears the helmet is very inconsistent with where the screw caps are . Some have the place high up on the upper dome and in some panels they are mounted low on the skirt , I’m assuming that’s how the chin strap is mounted . Then there’s the topic of the ear protection. Like with real world military helmets it would make practical sense to have ear protection for sappers who are dealing with explosives. 

[Blackwatch[CMD-DCA]]

Regarding teams: Real combat engineers do work in teams and there is a workload division.  There is enough variation in this pack layout we have seen that we can create a pack config for each pack.  While some may not be dipicted on the back, I do not feel that that is enough evidence to warrant removal of major component of the backpack.  Not all of the troopers have the right side pouch either, nor is there a consistent layout on the charges. 

Regarding  markings , the sapper in the forground that has his hand on his helmet as sapper number 3 gets blown up in the background has markings that look like an arrow.  I feel that since this is only seen once , for the purposes of the CRL that no mention of markings be made. 

 @izzi (welcome back by the way)  had stated that the packs would have charges.  The packs WITH charges have chest pouches. Those without charges (returning from the canyon) do not. The chest pouches are defined in their own entry since they are not part of the belt assembly. Here's the current text:

Chest Pouches

For 501st Approval:

Black rectangular nylon chest pouches are worn between the backpack shoulder straps.  1" -1.5" black nylon webbing mounts these to the shoulder straps. Either one large or two medium size pouches are seen in the source art. With minor modification black MOLLE pouches , First Aid pouches, SAW gunner pouches, gas mask pouches etc. are permitted for the chest pockets. No visible buckles or pull cords are permitted. Pouches will be stuffed to appear full.

• Two medium-sized (approx. 3"x 5" with snap closures) chest pouches are seen on some troopers. They  do not have to be symmetrical.
• One large pouch (approximately 8" x 5" with no visible closures) chest pouch is seen on on other troopers. 

 

Regarding the helmet caps, again there is no consistent placement and there are even helmets within the art that have four caps. My input would be to put them above the goggle strap, which is at least consistent with part of the art. I have added a line to the helmet proposal that hearing protection will be present.  

• Screw caps may be mounted to either side of the helmet per the source art either above or below the goggle strap

ill be building my pack out of Sintra this weekend, and I should have it done Sunday night or Monday at the latest.  I wont have the charges yet, but the pack frame boxes and shovel will be done and I can simulate charges with oatmeal tubes etc.  

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

@Blackwatch When I built my helmet I modeled it of of the detailed close up of the Sapper with the screw caps on the skirt , would mind be considered wrong ?

[ShovelGuy[501st]]

Also when you say the chest Pouch is mounted to the shoulder straps are you talking the Suspender shoulder straps or the pack shoulder straps ? The Suspenders makes more logical sense as it wouldn’t interfere with the removal of the pack , every time you put your pack on and take it off you’d have the strap and pouch catching . It’s not like the art helps though as in the clearest panel the Sapper has his hands covering where the pouch is attached and in other panels it’s not detailed enough .