tipperaryred

Yes, the key thing is the appearance, rather than trying to specify just one or two specific materials. I think the description we've developed captures the appearance quite well, and someone using a tight fitting British military pullover of the right colour would definitely match up. So long as the look is right howeve, we should leave alternate routes open to people. Are there any other issues outstanding with the undersuit, or is everyone happy with it as it stands?

My apologies, I forgot that part of our earlier discussion - my brain is still catching up from my absence. Entirely agree with your assessment on that. How does the rest of the draft look to you?

Cheers! Would you mind creating a new thread for your helmet and we can give everything the once over there once you're done. I can't see any obvious alterations needed, I just don't want to give you false promises that they're perfect until we've checked the boots in detail. My instinct is that they're as good as anything you'll find off the shelf though 🙂 Red text is just the text I've changed since the last draft - based on discussions we all had over the colour. Originally I put grey because it was darker than the white armour, but the good point was made that it should be a very light grey (different from the Super Commandos for example). So feedback welcome on all parts, but especially on the most recent changes (yellow and red).

HELMET rewritten - changes in red, with my comments in green. White text we seem to all be agreed upon. To keep things simple, I shall refer to the centre greebles and t-shaped vocodor as one item - "the vocodor". As per Kenyon's info, we'll treat this as a separately moulded piece that is inserted into a recess in the mouth plate. Once we are all happy with the wording, I believe the only slightly contentious issues remaining are the colours of the teeth and the top LED. Unless there is more information on these, we may just have to pick a colour, or give builders the option to pick their own interpretation from the possible options listed below. I would lean slightly towards the second option. Gloss black in colour, consistent with the rest of the costume. Is in proportion to the rest of the costume. The eye lens is one continuous piece with a mirrored red tint and should obscure the wearer’s eyes. The central vocodor should be moulded as a separate piece and is inserted into a recess in the mouth plate. Alternately it may be moulded as a part of the mouth plate, but with a prominent recessed outline to create the appearance of being separate. The top part of the vocodor is rectangular in shape, with two clipped dog ears on the top corners. A smaller plate of identical shape sits on top of this panel, leaving a narrow margin around each edge. There is also an angular cut out at the top of the right edge of this plate. A second rectangular plate sits on top of the first, covering the bottom 40% of the lower plate. There is a raised horizontal line on the lower left side of this top plate. There is a small square recess underneath this raised horizontal line. The main body of the vocodor sits below the panel described above. 9 raised ridges run vertically across the vocoder. Angled "wings" at the top of either side of the vocodor ridges, each slightly under 50% the length of these ridges. These wings angle down to rest on top of the main mouth plate. Square profile side tusks run back from the lower edges of this front plate. Recessed rectangular metallic silver screens are inset into the greeble in the front of each side tusk. Each greeble has a raised ridge on 3 sides, angling up from the bottom side of the greeble. Six pill shaped symmetrical recessed stripes on each tusk, with the bottom of the recesses filled with red to match the pauldron, belt accessories and left bicep armour. Small raised horizontal rectangle with recessed line is located below the vocoder. Raised teeth painted silver, with black/silver in the recesses. Alternately the recesses may be cut out and backed with mesh to obscure the wearer's face. I'm a bit reluctant to rely entirely on the Hot Toys here, especially when the show's screens don't have quite the same look, and that it breaks from usual "teeth" convention. Hopefully we may get a second opinion here. Silver rectangular plate on the nose, between the teeth and the front plate, with a silver half moon greeble on top. This plate is recessed below the angled face plates on either side. The half moon greeble is level with the adjacent face plates. Symmetrical recesses with pill shaped greeble on each side between the side tubes and the cheeks. Top of greebles are split in half with the top half being flat and the bottom half having 4 raised ridges that are level with the flat half. Sharp angular cheekbones sculpted into helmet face plate running in a triangular shape below the lens opening. Three raised ridges run from the centre of the brow, over the top of the helmet and down to the rear centre of the helmet skirt. The central ridge is roughly 2.5 times wider than the ridges to either side of it. Top of the helmet is separated from the face plate by a horizontal band running above the brow. A groove separates the top of the helmet and the rear skirt, running across the back of the helmet, meeting the brow band on either side. The side greebles (communicators/range finders) are attached on top of the joins between the band and the ridge on either side of the helmet. Symmetrical rectangular greebles (communicators/range finders) with semi-circular ridges underneath, present at the back of each side of the brow band, situated on top of the point where the front band meets the rear groove. Greeble contains two raised and stacked squares, each with a circular LED or sculpted imitation located near the front, and a single recessed line in the shape of a square outlining the back two thirds of the greeble. OPTIONAL – top and bottom may be lit using LEDs. Top LED must be white/yellow/orange (more confirmation or references needed on this?), bottom LED must be red. Two small pill shaped double indentation in the bottom corners of the faceplate, under each ear. The rear indentation is vertical and slightly longer than the front indentation that angles toward the front of the helmet.

The shape seems quite close to Ph2 Clone shoulder armour, but the outwards curve in the middle is a lot more pronounced: In the screen above, it does also look like there's a reasonable amount of weathering? I'd propose something like the following: Purge Trooper style shoulder armor. Shoulders are tear drop in shape with all rounded edges, as per the references. Armor is painted satin black. Each shoulder has a red Imperial Cog emblem, sized to the wearer as per the references. Armour should be attached with hook and loop or other similar invisible method. Armor has some moderate weathering. Any weathering present consists of grey tones. IAlso, I saw in one screen there is a huge white imperial cog on the underside 😅 Do we include this even though no one will ever see it?

Thanks for the spot, extra eyes are always welcome! Yes, in this case we already spotted that error in the Hot Toys figure, so we'll stick with the screen reference 🙂 Apologies for the enforced absence all. I shall rewrite the helmet text below and see if we can get this part finalised. It's looking like it will be the toughest part, so it will be great to move on to the next parts.

Thanks Kevin, new renders look great. One missed panel line on the right ear cap, but otherwise I couldn't see any issues: For the boots, they'll probably need some alterations but they look a good starting point! As for the undersuit, yes, as we discussed on pg2 the top and the pants definitely seem to be different material. Would agree with the top being of a similar style to British military pullovers (which are usually made from acrylic). I would suggest either the pants are a separate garment of a different material, or they are part of a flight suit (which then have the ribbed top worn over the top half). More than happy to have someone else jump in with some feedback, especially if they have a lot of experience with fabrics 🙂 So, to get our undersuit finished, this is where we last left it on pg2 (with some alterations from Ryan's earlier work). Fire away with any additional feedback! Must be a two-piece garment, and must be properly fitted and shaped to the wearer. Must not have any visible pockets, pouches or zippers. The upper body part of the flight suit is maroon colored, in a heavily ribbed style similar to acrylic British military pullovers. The neck area of the flight suit goes halfway up the neck of the wearer to conceal skin when the helmet is worn. On each shoulder of the flight suit there is a white Imperial Cog emblem on a black background. The cog is 3” (76.2mm) or 3.5” (88.9mm) diameter and 1” (25.4mm) from the shoulder seam. The cog may be embroidered or vinyl. The lower body part of the flight suit is a very light grey or weathered white . The lower part may be a separate trouser garment, or part of a one piece flight suit. If a one piece jump suit, the upper body jumper should be worn over the garment so as to obscure any view of the flight suit underneath. The lower body part of the flight suit has the following seams: On the outside of each leg there is a double-lapped seam which runs the entire length of the suit showing from the top of the shins up under the belt. On the front just above the top of the knee armor which wraps around to the back of the flight suit and appears on the back. On the back from the knee seam there is a seam that runs up the back of each thigh and then curves to the outside of the back under the belt. There is a horizontal seam that runs across the butt connecting both of these seams running up the back of each thigh. On the back there is central double-lapped seam which runs from under the belt to the crotch of the wearer.

Sorry for delay mate, it's been a crazy busy last week. Can say we're happy with painted triangle rather than recess though. Will check the latest renders when I can, but first impression again is great!

That seems the most conclusive angle we've seen so far, and there doesn't seem to be any recess there. What do you think?

Only minor issues I'm seeing so far. I know you haven't put any recessed panel lines in yet so I won't include anything on those. For the front I think the only shape issue is the bottom of the visor. Compared to the references I think it is slightly too much of a pointed shape. The bottom does need to taper in, but it is slightly wider at the base than in your current draft. For the back, I'm not sure about the gap outlined in yellow above (between the ear plate and the raised shape). It should be straight, and a little narrower I think. The oval greebles (left one highlighted in brown) need to be a bit narrower I think. The central greebles (outlined in green) are raised up in your draft, and I think we decided that they should be flat but outlined by recessed panel lines. Maybe you already planned to fix this when you put the panel lines in? These small details aside, I think it looks spot on. Great work!

Thanks mate, it's looking great on initial impressions. When I get the chance I'll look in greater detail a bit later.

Most parts look pretty clear to me now, though please let me know what you think of my interpretation of the top greeble: I'm seeing three height levels. The first "step" (red in my simplified diagram) is the same shape as the black outline, but sits inside it. Then I'm seeing a rectangular bar (green in my diagram) that sits on top of that. I see an angled notch on the right side of the first step (red), and a rectangular notch at the bottom of the second step (green). I can also see the recessed line above this second notch (green). Are you seeing the same arrangement as me?

Thanks Brad, much appreciated. Yes, luckily the lighting is fairly clear, so we've been taking that into account so far. The only major colour change we've made at this point is the pauldron, which we're calling black instead of grey. Is that how you would see it too?

Cheers. Shoulder armour next? I might have a bit of time today or tomorrow to knock a draft together.

It's a tricky one. Seen in isolation it does often look white. But every time it is side by side with the white armour, it definitely looks darker to me. Would 100% agree it's nowhere near as dark as his Mauldelorian suit, but I'd be inclined to call it a very light grey or a dirty white. I think we definitely need to distinguish that the suit and armour are different shades.

My apologies, I had no idea that was a display of an actual screen used helmet - I thought it was a close up of one of their figures. If that is in fact screen used, then of course that's an ideal reference to take everything from.

Unit Leader T-21 Trooper Trooper

I completely forgot that there's a separate card for the T-21 trooper. Unfortunately however, I just checked and they're presented on it as little more than a silhouette in front of a sun in the background. In saying that, the profile doesn't suggest that they have a bulky bandolier on, so I'd say ignore my last suggestion to link them. As for the figures, I do still have a couple of squads ready to be painted by being primed in grey with a simple white zenithal highlight. So that picks out the details very nicely, without there yet being any of my own interpretations on them yet. I'll get a ring light out at the weekend and take some decent photos. EDIT: So the highlight was a bit chalky, so not the best of images. They do however capture most of the details for the Unit Leader, T-21 Trooper and Trooper miniatures. Added to the reference gallery.

Perfect, text reassembled with your addition (tweaked slightly to clear up my original meaning in the first text). And yes, they definitely took inspiration from the Clone packs there! Pauldron A black pauldron made of leather or a leather-like material, worn over the right shoulder. There are six vertical panels at the front, and six at the rear. On the right side of the trooper, these are joined by the main, largest panel of the pauldron over the right shoulder. On the left side, these are joined by a smaller inverted trapezoid panel at the side of the neck. The pauldron has hems of the same leather or leather like material running around the full inside and outside circumferences of the pauldron. The main shoulder area of the pauldron is grey (current images suggest black to me?). A black strap runs under the right arm, attached to the front and back of the pauldron at the points where the front and back ribs meet the largest panel of the pauldron. Strap is attached to the front and the back using a gunmetal popper or rivet. A black strap, made from leather or leather-like material, extends from the front left corner, under the left arm and attaches at the back left corner. Attachment is out of sight, under the pauldron. The strap has a buckle attached under the left armpit that resembles a ratchet-strap, as per the reference image. Three ammo cartridges are attached to the strap over the chest. Each cartridge has a raised U-shaped profile at the bottom, and a recessed rectangular notch in the centre of the top.

Flight Suit rewritten Ryan's original text in white, my additions in yellow, areas I'm unsure about in red with my notes in green. Must be a cotton or cotton blend two-piece garment, and must be properly fitted and shaped to the wearer. (If going with British military style pullover, material would commonly be acrylic it seems.) Must not have any visible pockets, pouches or zippers. The upper body part of the flight suit is maroon-colored, in a heavily ribbed style similar to British military pullovers. The neck area of the flight suit goes halfway up the neck of the wearer to conceal skin when the helmet is worn. On each shoulder of the flight suit there is a white Imperial Cog emblem on a black background. The cog is 3” (76.2mm) or 3.5” (88.9mm) diameter and 1” (25.4mm) from the shoulder seam. The cog may be embroidered or vinyl. The lower body part of the flight suit is colored to match the white of the armor pieces (in the references it looks more like a light grey, definitely a shade or two darker than the white armour?) . The lower part may be a separate trouser garment, or part of a one piece flight suit. If a one piece jump suit, the upper body jumper should be worn over the garment so as to obscure any view of the flight suit underneath. The lower body part of the flight suit has the following seams: On the outside of each leg there is a double-lapped seam which runs the entire length of the suit showing from the top of the shins up under the belt. On the front just above the top of the knee armor which wraps around to the back of the flight suit and appears on the back. On the back from the knee seam there is a seam that runs up the back of each thigh and then curves to the outside of the back under the belt. There is a horizontal seam that runs across the butt connecting both of these seams running up the back of each thigh. On the back there is central double-lapped seam which runs from under the belt to the crotch of the wearer.

HELMET rewritten - remaining problem areas in red, with my comments in green. White text I'm happy with. Gloss black in colour, consistent with the rest of the costume. Is in proportion to the rest of the costume. The eye lens is one continuous piece with a mirrored red tint and should obscure the wearer’s eyes. There is a black hexagonal front plate, with matte black greebles. Very difficult to call colours here. It definitely looks like a different finish to the rest of the helmet. Centre top greeble is rectangular in shape with two clipped dog ears on the top right and left corners. Recessed line follows the outline of the greeble and includes a horizontal intersecting line that runs across the bottom third. One longer line is just below the horizontal line on the left bottom. One shorter line is just above the horizontal line on the right. The descriptions in red above don't really fit with what I can see there. It might just be difficult wording, or we might be seeing different things due to the poor quality of references. Any chance of better shots? T-shaped vocoder is in the lower centre of the plate. Small black rectangles with rounded corners at the top left and top right of the vocoder. 9 raised ridges run vertically across the vocoder. Small raised horizontal rectangle with recessed line is located below the vocoder. Square profile side tusks run back from the lower edges of this front plate. Recessed rectangular metallic silver screens are inset into the greeble in the front of each side tusk. Each greeble has a raised ridge on 3 sides, angling up from the bottom side of the greeble. Six pill shaped symmetrical recessed stripes on each tusk, with the bottom of the recesses filled with red to match the pauldron, belt accessories and left bicep armour. Raised teeth painted silver, with black/silver in the recesses. Alternately the recessed may be cut out and backed with mesh to obscure the wearer's face. I'm a bit reluctant to rely entirely on the Hot Toys here, especially when the show's screens don't have quite the same look, and that it breaks from usual "teeth" convention. Hopefully we may get a second opinion here. Silver rectangular plate on the nose, between the teeth and the front plate, with a silver half moon greeble on top. This plate is recessed below the angled face plates on either side. The half moon greeble is level with the adjacent face plates. Symmetrical recesses with pill shaped greeble on each side between the side tubes and the cheeks. Top of greebles are split in half with the top half being flat and the bottom half having 4 raised stripes that are level with the flat half. The picture you supplied for this one didn't seem to upload. From the other pictures I can see what you mean, but it looks like the lower ridges are below the flat plate above to me. Do you have a better image that shows different? Sharp angular cheekbones sculpted into helmet face plate running in a triangular shape below the lens opening. Three raised ridges run from the centre of the brow, over the top of the helmet and down to the rear centre of the helmet skirt. The central ridge is roughly 2.5 times wider than the ridges to either side of it. Top of the helmet is separated from the face plate by a horizontal band running above the brow. A groove separates the top of the helmet and the rear skirt, running across the back of the helmet, meeting the brow band on either side. The side greebles (communicators/range finders) are attached on top of the joins between the band and the ridge on either side of the helmet. Symmetrical rectangular greebles (communicators/range finders) with semi-circular ridges underneath, present at the back of each side of the brow band, situated on top of the point where the front band meets the rear groove. Greeble contains two raised and stacked squares, each with a circular LED or sculpted imitation located near the front, and a single recessed line in the shape of a square outlining the back two thirds of the greeble. OPTIONAL – top and bottom may be lit using LEDs. Top LED must be white/yellow/orange (more confirmation or references needed on this?), bottom LED must be red. Two small pill shaped double indentation in the bottom corners of the faceplate, under each ear. The rear indentation is vertical and slightly longer than the front indentation that angles toward the front of the helmet.

The T-21 trooper is always equipped with the bandolier, so we could perhaps add "If equipped, the trooper should also wear the bandolier listed here as an optional extra" to the T-21 text? Or words to that effect? Everything else discussed seems to have all but exhausted the available resources. We are essentially just going with a modification of the existing Inferno CRL, using sculpts and art work to fill in some blanks. And 90% of those changes are simply colour changes. The only other thing I could potentially do is take some hi-res photos of one of more of the sculpts from all angles?

Cheers, those are a great help and explain pretty much all of those points. I'll redraft a new version once I'm done with work.

Perfect! I'll merge what we have together next time I'm with my laptop. I'd tend to agree on the commando style jumpers, that looks pretty close to me. Kevin makes a good point that it wouldn't make sense to use the same material for the trousers. So if we go with that, we'd either be looking at separate top and trousers, or an under suit made from the trouser material, with a jumper over the top? Either way, a 2 piece construction instead of the previous 1 piece option?

I suppose that's the only colour we know the under suit to be. If we list it as only sleeves and neck, you could potentially have someone with a bright green torso which is CRL approvable 😅 I know where you're coming from, but if we don't have clear evidence that the torso is a different colour, best practice would be to consider it the same. Ultimately, if you had an under suit with a slightly different colour torso, it's not going to be visible in any clearance photos anyway, so we don't need to lose any sleep 🙂